Sawyer Loon vs Placid Rapidfire

Ok…

– Last Updated: Nov-03-07 4:26 PM EST –

I am a canoe newbie,{kayaks for years}but just spent some quality time in 2 RapidFires at Raystown. Let me just say this I was dam impressed by them I am getting one too in a few weeks. I have seen the Sawyer loons,but not interested in a decked canoe,so no paddling experience in one.

I say there were subtile differences in the 2 RapidFires.

Boat 1:
Dave Yost's personal RapidFire. Same lay up as stock boats,but Ash gunnels,solid pumpkin color, non stock color,and high carbon seat. Initial stability,good, secondary the same. Speed into a 15-20mph head wind 5.5{gps} for 1/4 mile, lower then expected paddling effort to obtain. Top speed obtained 6.4{gps} in 8-10" chop. Felt the boat could do even higher speeds in calm water{I will soon find out}. Boat was dam near wind immune. Slight weathercocking at 15-20mph winds in 8-10" chop, with wind from all directions.No major wind induced handling problems. Seating position slightly high & forward leaning,but comfortable.

Boat 2:
Stock boat with custom wood thwarts & end caps. Low seat,with extra snap over Mid height seat. Initial stability very good, secondary very good. Felt very comfortable on a hard lean. Due to lowered seat height.Mid Height seat was netural in seating position,and very comfortable to me,and what I ordered.The lower seat height was to low putting strain on my back to sit more upright,also sat leaning slightly back. Boat appeared even more wind immune then boat 1{more of my body profile out of wind stream}. Stability was better too,also because of seat height. Speed wasn't gpsed,but may be a tad faster due to lower body profile. Handled slightly better in wind & chop.

Seating on the bottom was kayak like ,but allowed freedom of movement for legs,change postions,reach for gear. Back band was wide & gave good support. Carbon seat was hard,but with thin seat pad, very nice. Foot braces were in perfect position for my size 13 shoe. Only complaint the Mid Thwart was to close to the seat. I am a big boy,and not as flexable as when younger. Thwart was just a little to close to the seat to allow me easy entrance. Talked about moving mine forward 2-3" ,structural issues may result,so I left it in the manufacturers hands,and I will deal with it.

Great boat,fast,long glide, good manuverability,comfortable seating,light weight. Just about all I was looking for in a paddle boat.Even my favorite color GREEN. I can't wait for mine.

billinpa

Mine is blue. Otherwise echo what
Bill said. Bill, I thought the legs would be a problem, but aren’t. I put a cut-to-size minicell pad under the footrest rails. Much easier on the heels than the deck.

"They call him…

– Last Updated: Nov-03-07 5:12 PM EST –

...Flippant! Flippant! Flippant! Faster than IC.......BM's! No one could beeeeeeeeeeee, more explosively caustic than heeeeeeeeeeee!"

Damn it all to Akron, N.T.! Now ya've got these Tim Burtonesque clock tower gears grinding out their last nightmare before standard time similes of hydro-takes-to-aero-dynamics-for-the-paddle-pendantics:

A Sawyer Loon is to a Placid Boatworks Rapidfire as a Douglas DC-3 is to a P-51 Mustang. (Does that mean to say all the Loons are fly'n coffee and coke over Andean highpoints these days?)

An Old Town Discovery 158 is to a Bell Magic as a slowly Flying Boxcar is to a F4U Corsair. (depends on whether you've gotta get over the Hump, or are feelin' a bit on the black sheepish offensive, I suppose?)

A Wilderness Systems Pungo 140 is to a Kruger Seawind as a Lockheed C5 Galaxy, with three engines shot out and emergency repair Bondo applied to fourteen gaping underside flak wounds is to two of those engines repaired and 12 layers of Kevlar replacin' the Bondo patches. Or, is it as five lumbering yaks are to one chargin' mastadon?

Course, I've got the Uberbot, and they tell me it got 5" thick Kevlar patches from McCraekenBotvurksMaybeYa after it was turned away from the rest of said herd. It's sort of a recalcitrant wounded rhino with issues.

So, what similes have paddled off with your wallet?

TW

there are three seat heights
offered, low medium and high, at least for the carbon ones…not sure of the wood one. Not surprisingly you may have different perceptions of stability and wind resistance with different seat heights.

Mean No Disrespect, but…???
But, sitting on your butt, double blade, go fast in waves and wind … why not do the full monty and compare the Rapidfire with modern touring kayaks?



I can anticipate the answers – light weight, fast, covers miles with ease, great handling, beautiful boat, great construction, easier to haul gear, romantic appeal and tradition of pack boats, more stability sitting – but … what distinguishes or makes the boat better than a sea kayak??? And I don’t mean to discount sea kayaks or kayakers by asking this.



Placid makes super boats, so no disrespect to them or their customers intended.






It already is and has been from day one

– Last Updated: Nov-04-07 6:59 AM EST –

This is from the Placid web site....

RapidFire is David Yost’s transformation of the Adirondack pack canoe into a wicked fast tripper that runs with sea kayaks. Asymmetrical hull shape, shear and rocker, and shouldered tumblehome with an elliptical bottom make RapidFire one of the more sophisticated hulls afloat. The shouldered tumblehome allows more efficient, more vertical, double paddle strokes. That, combined with the wildly efficient (beyond racing spec) 7.5 Length to Width ratio, RapidFire flies like a scram-jet and tracks like a train.

This is what I think...

Fact is that with a good paddler it will hands down beat just about any kayak in a race.

The distinction is it's an open boat with much more freedom to move around in, much easier to get in and out of, and it's ability to carry enough gear with easy access to the gear for some overnight tripping. It's weight is a distinct advantage over decked boats.

http://placidboats.com/newpack.html

Who Says You Have To Use…
…a freakin’ double blade, anyway? Paddles just fine with a single blade and will fly with a Zav. I’ve paddled the boat and I’ve paddled kayaks and it aint no kayak! WW

http://www.pbase.com/ozarkpaddler/image/74149224

The Rapidfire was exactly what this
kayaker needed. Most of the attribues of a kayak without my lower back going into spasm because i couldn’t move my legs.

I hope I never see the bow punch through a wave and then pull itself out, because I suspect it wouldn’t. I am real tempted to take it out to Bull Island in a couple of weeks but Bull’s Bay , like any saltwater, can get dicey in a hurry.

same here
Thats why I am selling my CD Caribou…when I fit under the thigh braces my back screams. The RapidFire will go most places I want to go that the bou did. I am over 60 and not doing ocean crossings anymore.



Plus with it being so easy to walk to the water there is no excuse for not paddling everyday that the water is not hard. I dont need a top deck, though I will have a spray cover.



You can paddle it single or double. MarcO makes a short shafted paddle or cut down a Zav.

Go for it string…
On one of my many trials of the RapidFires I hit the main channel of Raystown. As anyone there can attest as to how wooly it gets there. I wanted to try this boat in everything there was. The day I took out boat #2{one like I am getting} there was 10-16" close set wavelets with a 15-20mph head wind,and some light white caps. A power boater threw up a 2’ high set of wind pushed rollers. I hit them head on,turned,and surfed some back downwind. The bow on wave entry looked almost ready to submerge,but quickly rose,paused slightly at the top of the roller,and nosed over for the next set. No bow slap,just a hobby horse type ride. When I took one from the side it simply rolled underneath me. No splash,or water in the boat. I got worse then that from sea kayaks. I plan to take mine to the bay next year.



billinpa

I might just do that. There are 3
kayakers to pull me out if needed and a lot of people canoe behind barrier Islands.

I’m still thiking about a cover. haven’t seeen much need for one yet.

Heresy!
All the kayak references when discussing the Rapidfire is heresy (LOL)! WW

references are .

What’s the Seat Placement??
Is the seat canted? Or is it flat?



Glenn

Pb seats
We infuse three molded carbon seats at back angles of 12, 8 and 4 degrees. They are all about 2.75 inches high at the front, but each successive four degree shift raises the Ishial Spines another inch.



The low seat throws the paddler back into the backband, the 4dg seat forces the paddler so upright the backband is un-necessary.



Our cherry framed cane seat has an 8dg back angle.

Essentially an Open Kayak
Charlie,



I love my Summersong for flatwater, but have just moved back to my ORIGINAL Merlin because I like the “personality” of the Merlin. I’m a KNELLER.



I’m still looking for something slightly narrower than the Merlin (comparable to the Summersong or Rapid Fire), some rocker for turning (like the Merlin) and light or very light.



I don’t like the Magic too well - too long for me. I am 5’ 11", 205 athletic build. Suggestions???

B Kunz Merlin, etc
Bell’s Bruce Kunz designed Merlin was a fast, straight tracking, tripping boat. As the split mold hogged, then cracked, we moved on.



Narrower? There are only five in production. American Traders Twister Solo is 27.5" by 13’ and 12’ deep at center. Hemlock’s Kestrel is 27.5" X 14.75’, 11" deep amidships. Placid boats FlashFire is 28" X 13’X 12". RapidFire 27.5"X 15’ and SpitFire 27.5" X 12’ both 11" deep at center.



Twister, Kestrel and Flash are normally dedicated kneel and sit high boats while Rapid and Flash are usually low seat canoes, but can be converted to kneeling. We do that pretty often now for Rapid but rarely for SpitFire.



Twister and FlashFire are highly rockered river tripping or freestyle boats. The others have stems deeper in the water and track without master level skills.



There are also several custom shops making narrower hulls; Loon works, JEM, Dog Paddle Design and Grasse River, GRE, come to mind.

kneeling RapidFire
I’ve had a kneeling RapidFire for over a year and like it very much. I’ve never paddled the original Merlin, so I can’t give you a direct comparison. The RapidFire turns reasonably well but has a stickier stern than I like (presumably from the differential rocker). It doesn’t turn as nicely as my WildFire did. But it’s narrower and faster. It’s plenty seaworthy for three-foot, fairly steep waves, but it couldn’t handle (or I couldn’t handle) the fast beam chop that this weekend’s tropical storm sent to New York City.



– Mark

Are higher sitting seat heights a
future option? I’m accustomed to seats that are higher for sitting and single blading: about 4" for Starlight and about 6" for the Summersong and Loon. I like the Sawyer molded tractor style seats and prefer not using a back band or other back support.



Your carbon seat looks like it would be quite comfy on the tush.



I think I’d actually have to try the 2.75" high seat with the different angles to see which I preferred, or if it would be too low all together for my preference.



Thanks for making a top notch product and for participating in these discussions.

kneeling Rapidly

– Last Updated: Nov-08-07 7:35 AM EST –

We have recently started offering Rapid with a high, kneeling cane seat hung from the rails. We add a double layer kevlar diamond and a double layer carbon belly band at the seat location, then drop the seat from trusses. A recent cobrasox rail/thwart version weighed 27# 4oz, 28# 5 w/ footpegs.

With wood trim, kneeling Rapids are roughly the weight of the Hemlock Kestrel, a very similar hull that comes standard with kneeling seating.