Those are the same washers that have been onmy old town for almost 50 years. They work fine and don’t loosen.
Use whatever you want, but I wouldn’t reinvent the wheel here
Use a split spring stainless lock washer between your flat fender washer and your nylon lock nut and your hardware will not loosen. The fender washer diffuses the pressure on the underside of your thwart or seat frame and won’t damage the wood.
@pblanc Thanks for the tips and the link to Ed’s. I haven’t gotten to the local hardware store yet but will in the next couple days to see about the 6" bolts - hoping to save ordering online but we’ll see. Old Town also carries the bolts online but they may be out of stock on those along with just about everything else. I might try my local outfitter too - they had the thwart and yoke in stock thankfully.
I understand the fender washers to keep the nuts from biting into the wood, but I’ve never quite understood how the split-spring washers help. I guess they hold tension in the system without having to over-tighten and bite into the wood?
@mike93lx Interesting that those same washer-nuts are on your Old Town as well, I’d assumed they were after-market as much of the outfitting on this boat seems to be. Do yours bite into the wood, as shown by the mark left in the thwart in my pic? If yes, any signs of rot around the nuts, or were they sealed somehow?
Spring washers work as lock washers by exerting a force against the nut that resists it from unscrewing. With the nylon insert nuts you can get by without them but they are inexpensive and unobtrusive so I usually add them.
If you have a situation where you must use a plain stainless hex nut, the split spring washers are pretty essential.
I am sure they are oem. They are used on both seats as well as the thwart.
No rot. The thwart has poly on it but I would be surprised if it was resealed after drilling. Certainly possible though
Interesting, thanks!
I have drilled fairly large holes in wooden boat parts and then filled the hole with epoxy thickened with wood flour. After it cures, I go back and drill the proper sized hole through the epoxy.
I also, almost always us lock washers and wing nuts to bolt seat supports together. Yes, you have to check them every once in a while, but you should anyway.
The advantage is when you have to make an adjustment and are away from your socket set. You can adjust wing nuts by hand.
What adjustment do you need to make to a thwart or seat on the fly?
I really think that all of the options discussed will work just fine.
On this boat I did 5-6 coats of hempseed oil in the holes and on the seat and thwart ends and hidden side of the seat drops, epoxy in the gunwale holes (and then redrilled), stainless flat washers and nylon lock nuts on the bottom and perhaps most important finish washers on top since the original (1999) machine screws had burrowed a good 1/4 inch into the gunwales.Just got it all screwed back together yesterday.
Mike, I like to paddle in the low kneel position. It usually takes me a while to find the exact seat angle that fits me. My knees aren’t what they used to be.
I have used the method of filling holes with epoxy and redrilling after it cures when holes have been made that are oversized, holes were drilled too deep or had worked themselves too deep, when machine screws had been countersunk and I wanted to use finish washers instead, or when carriage bolts had been used and had stripped the wood.
It works very well but is a little more labor and materials intensive.
Best to use an oil such as Watco Teak Oil which breathes yet still protects the wood. Varnish or poly seals in moisture which will cause rot and/or mold to form under the finish.
Update: I hand-fashioned replacement bow and stern carry handles out of scrap pine. Already used spar varnish to seal those and the thwart and yoke, including the bolt holes, which I drilled slightly larger than needed.
I was able to get new hardware from my local outdoor store, which also sells online: https://www.atkenco.com
I have quite a few wood trimmed canoes. Some have oiled gunwales, some have bright finished (varnish, urethane, or varnish over clear epoxy) gunwales. My wooden seat frames, thwarts, yokes, carry handles, and seat hangers likewise are either oiled or bright finished. And I have two stitch and glue wooden kayaks which are varnished over epoxy.
I have not sen any evidence that bright finish “traps” moisture leading to wood rot. On the contrary, I have found end rot of thwarts and gunwales to be far more common with oiled finishes, although this can probably be avoided with more frequent oil application.
Nor have I ever seen mold to form under bright finish. On the other hand, mildew is not uncommon on oil-finished wood.
1 Like
My experience is just the opposite. I’ve seen lots of mildew on gunwales that have been varnished, but none on those that have been oiled with Watco Teak Oil. It may depend on the humidity levels under which the canoes are stored.
On Nov 26, 2020, at 5:04 PM, pblanc via Paddl
Use locknuts
@Green_Canoe @anon64780766 I have to agree it depends on circumstances - not only of storage but of use (how rough you are on woodwork) and frequency of maintenance as well. I’ve had to replace varnished yokes due to peeling varnish and rot (such as the one pictured above), but only after the canoe was stored outside on the ground, in leave litter and wet dirt, for several years. In “Canoe Paddles - A Complete Guide to Making Your Own” by Warren and Gidmark, they address the oil vs varnish debate. According to them, varnish excludes water better UNTIL a scratch allows water in through a crack - then you’re trapping water inside. Oil doesn’t trap water like varnish does, but does need to be maintained much more often - I’ve heard recommendations to oil paddles twice a year. So, I’m sure it depends where you store your boat, how often you maintain it, and the likelihood of getting a deep scratch in a varnish coat.
Given that Old Town and Wenonah at least use varnished yokes and thwarts, I think I’ll be OK going that route, given that my canoes are stored in the garage these days. I’d rather not have to take them off every year or two to re-oil them. Paddles are much easier to re-oil - you don’t have to un-bolt them from anything first.
We have somewhat departed from the original intent of the thread, but what the heck.
I have a lot of experience using both bright finishes and various types of “penetrating” oils on wood trim of canoes and wooden kayaks. I have used a variety of different types of oils. The best cosmetic results I have obtained have been with Deks Olje, but these days I most frequently use Watco Teak Oil because of its nearly universal availability and reasonable price.
As for bright finishes, I have used a variety of marine varnishes as well as spar urethanes. Nowadays my favorite bright finish is two or three coats of a clear penetrating epoxy such as System Three Clear Coat followed by three coats of marine varnish or urethane. I have found the addition of the penetrating epoxy to significantly enhance the durability of the bright finish.
On canoes that I use in whitewater or those that I expect will see heavy use I always oil the gunwales. With that type of use bright finished gunwales are too frequently and easily scratched up. I will usually also oil the thwarts in whitewater canoes for the same reason. On flat water canoes I tend to favor bright finish as it is more durable and does not require frequent reapplication. Seat frames and seat hangers tend to be relatively protected within the hull of a canoe and those I usually bright finish.
I think oil finishes are very good if they are kept up with. My experience is that they are very, very often not kept up with. Everybody has the good intention to reoil their wood trim at least every 6 months and then life intervenes and several years go by without any reapplication. That is fine if the canoe is being stored indoors and not used.
But it is also my experience that oil does not really “penetrate” to any significant extent and is not very durable. When paddling whitewater in an open boat I frequently drag the heel of my hand along the onside gunwale and pry off my hand against the gunwale of my wood trimmed boats. And after only a single day trip the oil is completely worn off the onside gunwale down to bare wood. So these days I usually prefer synthetic gunwales on whitewater canoes.
Where oil really falls short is sealing exposed end grain. Ash especially loves to suck up water along exposed end grain. The exposed end grain of thwarts, yokes, and seat frames is usually not accessible to reoiling without removing the components. And the end grain of inwales is often covered by on-lay deck plates. The underside of wooden inlay deck plates is also rather difficult to access in a canoe with float tanks. Bright finishes do a much better job of sealing up the end grain where exposed.
But bright finishes are more time consuming to apply and to repair than oil and nothing looks worse than a scratched up bright finish. So there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
I’ve always preferred oil for the aesthetics (look and feel) and over time have switched to hempseed oil because it is non-toxic which is a real pleasure for me.
I’d always assume that varnish is best for outside storage but just wanted to comment that in my experience with indoor storage an oil finish doesn’t require seat and thwart removal to touch up the ends very often, it’s more like every 5-10 years than every year or two. The boat in the pic has gone out around 50-100 times a year since '99 and there isn’t a touch of rot anywhere even ignoring the thwart and seat ends for ten years. I bought a '96 Bell this summer and it was dry and happy on seat and thwart ends after 25 years. Maybe if the boats didn’t live in Midwest garages they’d need more frequent touch-ups. I do oil the exposed parts of the thwarts (and gunwales) more often but that’s more for aesthetics, not durability/rot.