False Sweep
I am assuming the blade face should be flat on the water or should there be angle?
Angle
Someone will probably show me I’m wrong but I believe you’re going to always want the blade angled so as you sweep back the blade tries to rise out of the water. That will counterbalance you pulling down and is what allows you to “pull” yourself up with the paddle.
Alan
contentious issue
There are some strong differences of opinion on this point. The bottom line is that whatever works is good.
In the video that was recommended earlier “The Kayak Roll” (Performance Video) Phil and Mary De Reimer and Dan Crandall make a big deal out of maintaining a neutral blade angle, asserting that having even a mild climbing angle will cause your sweep to “stall out” and somehow force you to lift your head. With all due respect to these fine instructors, I think this is BS (I do think it is a pretty good video, however).
In his book “The Bombproof Roll and Beyond”, Paul Dutky describes an "advanced C-C roll, in which the paddle is kept in the water but near the surface but maintained at a slight climbing angle to initiate the roll before the hip snap. I have done this and it works fine. It doesn’t cause the sweep to stall, or make one lift one’s head.
Angle
– Last Updated: Jul-22-10 1:17 PM EST –
I have seen disagreement on this from competent instructors. The quote from the DeReimers in a post above emphasizes that the blade should be flat to slightly descending, and this is also emphasized on the DVD referenced above. A quote from the DVD is that a climbing angle kills the roll, and I have found this to be true myself.
You want to sweep your body away from the boat. A little climbing angle might not hurt, but any more than that and you will feel the resistance of the blade preventing the sweep. This stalls the blade/sweep, and the paddle dives down, and that doesn't work. You want the sensation of zero resistance with the blade. A climbing angle also encourages you to pull down on the paddle, which kills the roll. The DVD is really good in teaching this concept.
I had a hard time with the angle, and during a lesson Phil DeReimer encouraged me to think of the paddle shaft like a motorcycle throttle, and to give it more gas as I swept away. I did this and maybe for the first time I felt no resistance and a really effortless roll. I put that roll on Facebook to remind me. Here is a link of that roll. I'm a student and not an instructor, but you can see that my blade angle is slightly down - and that works best for me to get zero resistance.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1052647173120
Another place to see the importance of no resistance is on this Youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff_te_yjcHM
I can see the logic in neutral
I think the key thing there is “teaching”. Over time people fine tune their teaching methods to end up doing what seems to get the most people rolling the quickest. Then you stray a little this way and that for those who aren’t getting it the way you have found most do. Different teachers obviously find that a bit different method works for them, and by default they all could be accused of a little bs on certain issues.
I could tell a group and demonstrate that I can use a climbing angle, neutral angle, or diving angle. They would ask what works best. If I responded with a depends upon the person, they would probably ask what works best for most people.
My honest answer for myself would be that a neutral blade, a sweep that creates the least resistance felt in sweeping, makes the whole thing feel easier, quicker, and smoother. The other place I think it holds a lot of value is that it quickly convinces a person that they really are not pulling themselves up with the paddle. For some reason, when you feel some resistance against the paddle, and you don’t think you’re going to roll up, it can become instinctual to find a way to get more resistance against the paddle in order to force yourself up to the surface. Seems like a logical enough instinct? That would likely be the point they describe as “the sweep stalling out”. Obviously, it doesn’t have to happen that way, but they probably have found that it often does.
People always say “whatever gets you rolled up”. Those with a reliable roll know that several variations can get you rolled up. I’ve managed to roll up in all kinds of different ways in real combat-rolling situations. I only know that the body mechanics are always the same. Even if you happen to be lying on your back deck, but your face and chest are against the bottom, you put out a hand and roll yourself up with the same basic body mechanics. If you practice and are content with a “barely brings you up - but it’s the only thing that barely works for me” roll, it may not be that reliable in unexpected situations. Think of it as a utility stroke, not an unnecessary trick. Get the mechanics right, and tell yourself that you have your roll down once you can roll easily and without exacting setup.
I still think the resistance-free screw/sweep roll gets the body mechanics closest to moving on to a hand roll, but I’m open to other opinions.
Agree
The fully laid-back position lends itself to a nice, slow, smooth roll in which the hipsnap isn’t even on your mind. Great for practice. But when I tried this at the play park, I immediately got knocked back down before recovering into the “ready to paddle” position.
I found that hipsnapping more strongly and coming up with torso and head more like what’s in the “The Kayak Roll” DVD to work better in moving water. The finish position leaves you ready to brace immediately. But I practice both ways.
The first time I rolled while wearing a towbelt (pack on the back side), I went for my usual full layback roll…but due to the towbelt limiting my backward motion, I came up just like in the other version. So I don’t think you need to worry much about which way to learn–just get one dialed in first.
don’t worry about blade angle.
Slap the surface to make sure your blade is more or less parallel to the water. Beyond that don’t worry about climbing or diving blade angles, IMO. It doesn’t make that much difference.
bingo. the above is nit picking
I agree with you nate. The instructors who debate blade angle are picking nits. If a shallow blade angle helps you get upright, that’s what you should use. It’s as simple a matter as trying it yourself instead of letting instructors dictate to you.
If body movement is good,
blade angle is not critical. For me when learning, a steep climbing blade encouraged reliance on muscling the blade which is what you don’t want. But after you get the body movement right, it doesn’t much matter.
What’s helped me most is…
…nose clips. I wonder how many folks here use them? After about eight to ten rolls sans clips, my sinuses have pretty much had it. Plus around here some of the water is less than pristine and I don’t really want that stuff splashing around near my frontal lobe or whatever is there:)
Am I a little sissy for using 'em?
Nose clips good for learning
– Last Updated: Jul-23-10 1:11 PM EST –
One less thing to distract, annoy, hurt (if fresh water). I like something to prevent water from flooding my ears, too. Once water stays inside the ear, it really screws with balance. I found I could roll with ears messed up, but I could not LEARN new stuff that way.
Don't worry that you won't be able to roll up if you practice with the noseclips on. Chances are, you will. You will learn to lightly exhale through the nose to slow down the water entering. And if it's salt water, you won't even be bothered by the water entering your sinuses anyway. I loooooove rolling in the sea--put away those noseclips!
yes to nose plugs
I wear them for practicing rolls, and I also use them for surf landing/launching or any play in which I may get knocked around. Having nose plugs on increases the amount of time I can stay underwater calmly, and it prevents the whole “sudden explosion of body temp water from sinuses at inopportune times” thing.
I have one pair attached to my pfd and one attached to my helmet. Lately I have taken to wearing earplugs in addition to a neoprene hood to reduce the amount of water getting in my ears.
Nose Plugs Good
– Last Updated: Jul-23-10 4:43 PM EST –
I keep them attached to my pfd. I use them when practicing rolls and when I'm in water that will likely invert me.
Speaking of blade angle not being important if your body moves well... A strong thigh/knee lift makes it unnecessary to keep your head down. 'Head down' is good advice for learning to roll but once you get that leg-lift going... not so much.
You can roll with lots of thigh lift, or lots of paddle, head way back... not back at all. None of it is wrong. Learn and practice all of them.
The water around here…
…is a little too fresh, if you catch my drift. However next month I’ll be going to Georgian Bay (third time).
I will be far less concerned about a nasal lavage in those waters…
Nose plugs and ear plugs
– Last Updated: Jul-24-10 1:31 AM EST –
Swimmers ear is no fun. Doc's ear plugs are good.
Another great tool is video if you have access to a camera. I am a visual learner and used that a lot. Here is video of me taking a lesson with my sea kayak. The video has a pretty good angle for some of the questions you asked. The instructor there is Dan Crandall (one of the instructors on the DVD mentioned above), so although I am the student, the roll was at least within the bounds of what he teaches. Sometimes a picture can help more than descriptions.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1032125980103
I don't think that there are any privacy issues on viewing my videos.
helpfuf
Thank you that was helpful — I left a $ at the FB login window to cover the viewing admission price.