Similar kayak to OK Scupper Pro?

Nick Schade made a S&G SOT
I actually thought about making my own, but I really don’t want to waste so much material and time experimenting with hull designs. I’d want to test paddle something that’s a lot different from what’s on the market.

So many kayaks so little time …
or garage space left for that matter … they are stacked six deep as it is.



Wow that’s a nice looking boat, can’t believe they couldn’t sell 30 or 40 a year in the US.

Why test paddling is a good thing?
Hard to say how a boat will feel until you get into it, but that’s surely a boat that I’d like to get into for long enough to see whether I liked it or not!

I wonder if you could install rails
on deck and mount aluminum thigh braces like Necky uses. Seems like it ought to work. I doubt you could get fiberglass or plastic braces stiff enough to work with that kind of setup.



But then, I don’t find anything wrong with plain old thigh straps if they’re set up right. It’s kind of counter-intuitive, but the narrow, cheap ones seem to provide a better grip than the fancy wide ones that are supposed to be shaped to conform to your leg. I have the narrow ones in the Wave Witch and I’m about as connected as I could want to be.

If my wife will let me think about a new

– Last Updated: Jan-22-05 12:21 AM EST –

boat again here in a few months, I might have to do some more research on the Kaskazi boats and then have a go at trying to put the Kaskazi folks together with Pat and DeAnne Hemmens to see if they could stick a few of their boats in one of the Hemmens' containers of skis. If the boats are good there sure ought to be a market in CA and HI.

Or maybe Patrick will get that SOT deck designed for his Tideline boats? We can hope!

Re-entry and trade-offs
Dlonborg makes some all too common assumptions about SINKs that really don’t hold water.



SOT style remounts get less easy as beam decreases, until you get down to the other extreme of really skinny skis that can be straddled with legs over the sides to balance and it get easier to climb back on (staying on is another matter).



My 21" beam SINK is actually easier to remount - without using paddle float - than my 24" beam Shearwater SOT was. Getting back in my Q700 is not that different from side mounting my ski.

Shearwater was top heavy, had higher sharper cockpit sides, narrower cockpit, and a higher and less stable seat position. With a roll, I don’t even have to bother.



Touring SOTs will never be as easy to roll as touring SINKS - and rolling is far superior to other recovery options. First line of defense - with other options only needed if that fails. Rolling was also on that wish list, no? SOT paddlers don’t tend to get the “stay in the kayak - exit as a last resort” way of thinking, as it tends not to work well for SOTs.



A well outfitted sea kayak does does not often get fully swamped doing a variety of rescues - and pump out can be minimal, not the whole cockpit. With skirt and roll, again not often an issue.



Narrower beam for speed is a liability for diving (high COG with gear on deck - and harder to remount) and most fishing applications (less initial stability while rigging, playing fish, etc.). There are some free divers that dive from skis - but a set of fins and a mask is not much gear!



The self-draining SOT cockpit is nice if you swim and dive a lot off the kayak - as ‘cuda mentioned - but not a big deal for touring where you generally get in and out once per paddle. The wish list above was for a touring kayak, right?



The real compromises needed here aren’t really over cockpit types so much - but over the much more basic speed vs. stability issue, and it’s twin - the “What is the primary use?” question.



Fast-narrow-distance paddling-stable-easy on/off-gear hauling-dive/fishing platform? Good luck. That’s why most of us have more than one kayak, right?



As I’ve said many time before (here and the SOT boards): If you want a higher performance composite SOT, go buy one. There are many options now. Companies build based on past sales, not message board posts. Snap up what’s out there now and others will come out.



Just don’t count on them being everything a trusty Scupper Pro is and a whole lot more. Their is definitely a trade-off to get the extra speed. More so than with a SINK that has lower COG and better connection to the kayak.



A half SOT/half surf ski hybrid makes for an unstable/less SOT and a slow ski just as much as it makes a fast touring SOT.



I have 2 SINKs (17’10" x 21" Q700 and 17’2" x 22" Pintail if I count Kim’s), and two SOTs (16’ x 20" Tsunami X-1 and 21’ x 18" Mark 1 ski). I’ve also had an 18’3" x 24" Shearwater SOT and 16’ x 28" plastic SOT. Only 2 of the 9 kayaks I’ve ever had have been SINKs. I am not here on some sort of SINKs are better crusade - or pulling these things out of my @$$ just to be contentious. I’m just pointing out the (should be) obvious factors.



I really only point them out for the consumption of wide SOT paddlers who are not as likely to understand what they’ll have to give up to get the speed - but have this same dream boat in mind. Ski paddlers like Dlonborg already have enough balance and ocean time for it not to matter much how narrow they go.

Another hybrid option
The Paddleyak Swift



http://www.seakayak.co.za/kayak_store/gallery/gallery.asp?ProductCode=PY2038



Sort of an SOT/SINK hybrid. Seak kayaks style hull. Self bailing but can also fit a large skirt.



No real connection for thighs though. More a weather block in option. Deck only covers feet (can brace a little with feet), and is a lot like my Tsunami X-1 cockpit (which does not have scuppers) but X-1 has attachments for seat belt.

You don’t ever quit, do you?
Yes, there are tradeoffs. There are always tradeoffs.



But I do not understand why you continue to insist that a properly set-up SOT couldn’t be rolled as easily as a SINK. It isn’t the deck that matters, it’s the connection between paddler and boat, and a tight seat and tight, well-placed thigh straps work just fine. (I gather that seatbelts also work fine, maybe even better, but straps are what I’m used to.) The Wave Witch rolls easily enough, to the extent that I have the skill to do it. In terms of connection, I don’t find any major difference between it and the VCP Skerray I used in a lesson the last time I was on the mainland. The Mako with straps would be fine, too. And even if it there were some marginal difference between the connection you could achieve in them versus something like your QCC, that might be offset by other factors for some of us.



What other factors? For me, things like quick and easy entry for launching through shorebreak (wade out waist deep or so, jump in between waves, and go like hell before the next wave hits); quicker exit for landing through shorebreak; no skirt to futz around with; easier to enter and exit from the water (whether you went in on purpose or otherwise); no need to pump or dump on the water, ever; and probably a few others that I’m not thinking of right now. You may find those things unimportant for your purposes. For me, they’re not so significant that I couldn’t happily use a SINK for some of my paddling, but they’re significant enough that if given the choice between identical hulls I’d often choose the SOT version.

This is not an argument
Shore break concerns were already noted by 'cuda.



My comments on SINKs being easier to roll is not meant to be an all or nothing thing the way you seem to be taking it. Just that GENERALLY, SOTs are wider, heavier, have higher seats, and straps that offer a less solid connection - or if set up to be solid for rolling hamper leg movement paddling.



A strap setup for rolling and surf zone play is not likely to also be ideal for speed/distance touring.



I don’t see any point we disagree on - except you keep switching the primary boat use and environment to surf zone. Then you talk about a surf SOT that’s to some degree made for rolling!



The discussion, such as it is, was about a fast touring SOT. A Scupper on steroids. Touring us usually done outside the break, no?. Long and skinny is better for punching in and out - and some limited surfing - not really meant for extended surf play. Surf zone concerns still matter - but most SINK paddler in those environs manage just fine.



No clue why you see some sort of debate here.

Quick report on my trip out to try
surfskis…drove the 90 miles (one way), leaving my sunny coastal home in Santa Cruz, to arrive at the wavechaser race site in very cold and foogy Benicia, only to find out the demo wasn’t happening because it was so cold!!!



It was about 41 degrees and there were all these surfski paddlers in down jackets and ski hats. (BTW, most were wearing PFD’s) They actually changed the race course due to the cold!



However, everyone was really nice (they oferred to feed me:)I got to see the mako xt, futura II, and speak with Jude of Huki who is designing a new novice ski. I also met some really nice paddlers. The beginner skis don’t look so terribly different than the shearwater. This event will be rescheduled, so hopefully I will be able to attend. They said it may even be in Santa Cruz.

wave witch fan
i agree the more performance oriented and versatile sot could be available and i think the wave witch is a model for the potential. the original by hunt johnson was a 12’ s&g ply boat i think, i would love to build one. a plywood boat could be lighter and stiffer. i’d like mine to be 14’-16’x 25"-24" and 40#… hunt, are you listening?

Touring and surf
The issue is that sometimes there’s this surf place located between where you launch the boat and open water. If you can’t get through that, you can’t paddle the open water. That’s why I worry about surf performance in a touring boat.

Too bad
Hope they do it again. We don’t get things like that in FL. Not enough ski paddlers. Luck to be able to test paddle one if you know someone - and it probably won’t fit.



As for similarity to your Shearwater, biggest differences are:


  1. Much easier to remount a ski!


  2. Rudder!!!


  3. A lot more speed.


  4. Less volume, lower to the wind, easier to control, etc.



    There’s more, but from there it depends more on which ski. Most will seem a good bit less stable - at first.

Funny how it happens that way :slight_smile:

Check out the OK Prowler series
On our paddle today, there was a young man in an OK Prowler. He said this boat is supposed to eventually replace the Scupper Pro.



He had no trouble keeping up with a bunch of closed deck boats that were averaging about 4 knots/hour (4.6 mph) in our Southern California Off Shore Fog today.

About the “reviewer”

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Greyak stated:

"The same reviewer also has the Seda Revenge listed as Ultimate Superyak #1 - and some of you have paddled that and can use that to gain perspective on the other reviews."

As the "reviewer" I listed the "Superyaks" in no particular order. All one has gotta do is read the reviews and you'd note that each was included for very different reasons (eg price, performance, objective, etc.). The Seda Revenge, Kaskazi Skua, Kazkazi Pelican and Kingfisher are VERY different and fulfill very different objectives.

It would be well if one did not characterize the reviewer without apparently reading the reviews.

Greyak also shot from the hip:

"One of that clubs members also has his Kaskazi up for sale. If it's that great, why sell? If non-performance related sale - would you need to advertise it to move a boat that great? Should have to beat off the other yak fishers with your paddle!

I know the member personally, a nice guy who loved his Skua but has a very bad back, and couldn't seem to paddle it without pain. Placed a quick ad and it sold immediately to a racer.

It would be well if one did not criticize the sale/seller/kayak without knowing the facts.

Best,
CJ

ps. My personal favorite is my Skua at 17'4" x 22.5 in. x (approx) 50 lb, which I paddle under all manner of tough conditions. Moderate primary, great secondary, nice lean turns, reasonable hatches, super quality, great rudder (rarely needed). Cruise effortlessly all day at 4 to 4.5 mph, 5 with a bit of effort, sprint at 6+. I still own and love my Scupper Pro, but the Skua is truly a Pro on steroids.

Hats off to Kaskazi.

BTW, I have met the Grey One and he is a fine gentleman. We all have bad days...