Neither…
my SOF is fine without either one up to 20 knots. It's when winds begin to hit 25 knots I begin to notice some weathercocking. A bit of "body English" always seems to correct that.
sing
PS. My boat is skinny but I don't race with it. A little off here and there is no big deal as long as I can maintain a general course to where I want to go.
Not for a surf ski . .
DLonborg wrote:
Surfing downwind is one of the great joys of owning a kayak!
Given your location and a surf ski, I agree. But there are many kayakers that do not paddle surf skis or down-wind often and for them things are a bit different. For those of us that paddle rough water boats as our primary kayaks, down-wind surfing is a lovely and wonderful if somewhat rare opportunity. Here in the NE down-wind most often means transatlantic. My Portuguese is certainly not up to par with my paddling so instead of paddling with the wind I find that I paddle up-wind 90% of the time.
Is there some physical law of the universe that encourages the wind to always blow the opposite way that kayakers want to travel? I’m envious indeed if you have the opportunity to spend significant time paddling down-wind. In my experience, I spend so much more time paddling upwind that my down-swell / down-wind surfing skills lag well behind my other skills. I did have the opportunity to paddle down-wind for an hour a few months ago and it was magical! Of course that trip involved a shuttle, something to which I rarely have access.
I agree completely that rudders are the ticket for down-wind work. It’s just that in my experience, down-wind opportunities are exceedingly rare in my neck of the woods, due either the the prevailing winds, tidal currents or both.
Conversely skegs may help the boat track more stiffly but at the same time stiffened tracking makes it much more difficult to pull the stern into position when tying to get on-swell in a hurry. (Imagine - 1) raise the skeg, 2) re-grip the paddle, 3) stern draw to position our slow rough-water boats for the wave, 4) paddle like a banshee to catch the tiny and fast swells, 5) re-deploy the skeg before the boat broaches, 6) repeat until you finally get fed-up and buy a surf ski.) Many of us choose to paddle without the skeg when surfing down-wind for this reason, maybe it’s just a regional thing.
I lust after rudders every time I’m faced with traveling far and fast in favorable winds and certainly during the one race that I entered. That being said, easily 95% of my paddling involves neither rudders or skegs for many of the reasons that others listed. Once I buy a surf ski or an open ocean racer I may have to adjust the 95% down a bit. But for now, given the boats I paddle and the type of paddling I do, neither skegs or rudders bring much to the equation.
Cheers,
Jed
Quartering?
If my bow is 12:00 and my stern is 6:00... I really dislike a strong wind/ big wave from 5:00 or 7:00 for any length of time. I don't like it skegged or ruddered. Flatpick! Why don't you come to the right coast and teach me how to deal with it better?
(I have been known to tack this way and that to avoid those times. And heah in the Salth I have heard that lumpy water at Barden Inlet referred to as 'potato patch'.)
Use the skeg differently
Jed said:
Conversely skegs may help the boat track more stiffly but at the same time stiffened tracking makes it much more difficult to pull the stern into position when tying to get on-swell in a hurry. (Imagine - 1) raise the skeg, 2) re-grip the paddle, 3) stern draw to position our slow rough-water boats for the wave, 4) paddle like a banshee to catch the tiny and fast swells, 5) re-deploy the skeg before the boat broaches, 6) repeat until you finally get fed-up and buy a surf ski.)…end snip
Not to take anything away from a ski, but if you are paddling a skegged boat down wind and you find that you need the skeg to prevent broaching, I find that you don’t have to raise the skeg at all. Just edge or lean the boat and stern draw or rudder as needed.
Granted my Brit style boat doesn’t surf as well (with or without a skeg) as a ski, but you really don’t have to go through a lot excess work to use the skeg.
Just my 2cents
Mariner Kayaks
I have never paddled one and only have seen a two on water, but have been curious about their design approach which relies on neither a skeg or rudder to address these issues. What little I have seen and read about their hulls indicates that some are very happy with it’s rough water characteristics. Anybody have opinions as to why there aren’t other designer/builders who haven’t also tinkered with this approach? I know Surge out of Maine has, but I’ve been told that is a very strong tracker.
90% upwind!
Yeah, it does seem that way!
Also sounds like you exclusively paddle Brit boats 
Well suited to your uses, and great for rough water. For comparison (the only one I can make directly) my Pintail does not catch as much free energy as my QCC 700 (not saying a Pintail is representative of all Brit designs, but it does serve as a nice contrast to my Q700 on many design elements - and how those things affect handling).
Last Friday we had a nice steady 20 kt and 2 (maybe some 3) ft wind waves. I took both my Pintail and QCC 700 out to play. Both are skegged.
I caught many good rides in the QCC. It loves that stuff! It was a blast! Stable and no surprises - AND fast. Flies downwind - and MUCH faster heading back upwind than the Pintail (less rocking horse action). Well mannered in beam and all quarters. Takes a bit more to turn it, but not excessively so.
The Pintail of course handles small sloppy stuff like that very well, but almost too well as it was loath to catch those same waves. I got pushes, but the lack of volume in the ends, fine entry, and shorter LWL that make it so steady and predictable in short steep stuff were also cutting into the small waves and dampening the available energy. This prevented the boat from getting on them. Fun to maneuver about - but after the Q700 I found it more than a bit frustrating to try to get anywhere running downwind (or upwind for that matter). Pintail’s very capable yes, but somewhat dull. It was steady (so was the 700), but by taking me considerably longer to get anywhere I think that sort of handling can turn from advantage to disadvantage pretty quickly.
If I was not going far and the main goal was to play - Pintail would be fine. In a beach break - with higher energy waves - no doubt the Pintail’s dampening qualities would be more useful. Super choice for surf zone. Different sort of play than catching wind waves. For getting in and out, and from A to B (even if that’s just short run upwind/downwind play) I think I’d rather not be wallowing around like that.
If I need to get a across a textured stretch quickly and efficiently - I’m more likely to go with the Q700.
It’s all just the same old story: Different boats for different uses. Nothing new.
Still, I was a bit surprised at just how much more fun the Q700 was than the Pintail in those conditions. Maybe I was buying into the Brit hype/QCC limits BS a bit too much? QCCs are nothing radical. Very similar to the longer Brit boats in more ways than not - with just a bit more LWL (and unfortunately higher rear decks than most).
Just remove the seat . . .
. . . and sit on a flat piece of foam. That way you can schoch forward (same as no skeg) or back (same as setting a skeg). An unspuspecting Greenland style paddling afficianado mentioned this to me once and I’ve used the technique in my (very British) kayaks with significant success.
Additionaly, once that nasty seat is removed you can move your butt from side to side to edge the boat without the effort of a knee-hang. Great for long bouts of beam wind. A low profile foam seat that you can slide around is an interesting thing to play with. Might cause some difficulty with your roll but there’s no free lunch.
Cheers,
Jed
I kew they had offered a sliding seat
but they also have to be one of the most swede forms out there with the rocker seeming to start well back on the boat and rising at a steady angle while the stern does have a sailboat like skeg shape molded into it and figure that has to factor into it somehow. Visually it is different from most below the waterline, but I am not the one to explain how or why it might or might not work in rough water.
We each have different boats,
needs and goals.
Sometimes our boat preferences define our choices on where and when to paddle. Other times our preferences on when and where to paddle define our choices on which boat (s) to own / paddle.
The Pintail is a fine boat, not my preference but a fine boat by all accounts. It sounds like the QCC 700 is perfroming just as it was intended (just like the Pintail was perfroming as it was intended). BTW, I thought your characterization of their different design intents accurate and eloquent.
I do (currently) own only British sea kayaks (3 NDK’s & 1 VCP), my WW boats are German made (Eskimo). I have owned 3 different CD boats, each as lovely and capable as the next. I’ve also owned 2 different Necky boats. I have no problems with most boats or boat designs, I just have little desire / real need for alternatives to boats that are already in my fleet. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that my wife sees little need for any more boats?
But the heart can always dream:
I do so want an NDK Explorer LV, A Necky Looksha II, a T-bolt, an NDK Triton, a VCP Nordkap, a CD Extreme, a CD Gulfstream, a P&H Sirius, a Foster/Seaward Legend, a couple of surf skis, a few SOF’s, some SNG’s, an Epic 18, another 3 or 4 WW boats and many, many more not to mention a few high-end canoes. ( . . the above in no particular order, exccept the Explorer LV. That boat is beyond sexy from my point of view! )
The value or lack thereof of one boat over another can only be defined within our personal frames or reference. That is why these discussions go on and on. There are few times when someone is just dead wrong but more often people are just speaking from their personal frames of reference and so what they say it true for them if not for everyone.
I’m glad to hear you are happy with your boat choices. I hope everyone feels that same way about their personal boats. Now if we could just get people to avoid trashing other people choices we’ll be getting somewhere. In the final analysis, it isn’t the boat that matters anyway, it’s the paddler.
Cheers,
Jed
Agreed
Like you I am no designer. Possibly my understanding of kayak hulls is based on the boats I own and know. I’ve heard claims that Mariner kaysk don’t weather-cock but to be honest I never believed the claims. My understanding of hulls and hydrology tells me that all hulls weather cock to one degree or another at various wind strengths. I’ve always assumed that claims of non-weather-cocking boats to be an indication of stiff tracking, (which is not my current preference).
We buy our boats and we either learn to love or hate them. For the past several years I’ve assumed that if there’s a problem between the boat and me that it’s because of me and not because the boat was lacking. I credit this approach with encouraging me to learn to do things in my boats that they are not known to do well. It wasn’t always this way, which is why my wife still trembles when I tell her I tried a new boat.
Cheers,
Jed
Trade winds are beautiful
We’re fortunate to have trade winds most of the time in the summer and maybe 50% plus in winter, combined with an island that’s oriented so that typical trade winds allow an along-shore downwind run. It’s seldom squarely on the tail, but close enough for good surfing. I have occasionally got a little too enthusiastic and followed the wave trains a little farther offshore than I meant to, followed by the realization that (a) surfskis don’t particularly like paddling across the wind, and (b) it’s a hell of a long way to the Marquesas, but all’s well that ends well. Truth be told, I do out-and-back a lot more often than a straight downwind run (shuttles are a pain), but even at that it’s still 50% downwind. Paradise ain’t perfect, but the paddling’s pretty hard to beat.
$.02
I’ve got an Express. It’ll weathercock a little but it takes next to nothing to compensate for it. It’s very maneuverable but not from rocker as much as the hull from seat forward doesn’t present much resistance to turning. The biggest difference between it and other kayaks is that the bow is rounded with all the steering surfaces,chines+stern all generating from the seat aft. There isn’t an concavity to the bow. It’s not the fastest hull shape for what happens to the water flow at the stern but it’s very clear in seperating out where steering occurs. I think a lot of kayak design can come from someone looking at a sheet of paper and saying “the lines should go from here to here”,the Mariner guys started with wanting a particular handling and made the boat conform to that after multiple prototypes. The line drawers can also get to where they want to go,if the line is in the ball park and they’re willing to modify it if needed.
So set me up!
Let me know when you’re in the area. Better yet get me a gig at the KTPs thing and the symposium.
BTW - I’ve been cleaning up the guitars recently. You’ll be bringing one with you? Ever played with woodwinds? I’m thinking clarinets more and more these days. Should make for an intersteing sound rising out of the islands . .
Cheers,
Jed
yeah
maybe we can stand outside and play some tunes before the event. make a few bucks.
you with the fingers, me with a pick?
woodwinds, eh? sounds fun. Irish music soundz good with a penny whistle!
steve
understern rudder
North Shore Kayaks used to have an understern retractable rudder on thier tandem. They also made a model called the Buccaneer, so it’s odd that someone makes a boat with that name and an understern rudder.
The problems with that rudder was all O.E. (operator error). Apparently people would land with the rudder down or try to retract it when it wasn’t straight, so they would damage it.
I’ve heard that the rudder worked great but they changed to a stern mounted rudder. Probably easier to install and less likely to be damaged.
Yes!
I was in conditions and it didn't seem to matter squat what I did with the skeg. It was still hell trying to hold a course. What helped the most was getting into a lower volume boat. Flatpick's advice about 'steering at the toes' was also very helpful.
Yet another
very educational thread.
My move up from a recreational kayak involved getting a skeg boat, a CD Scirocco (Thanks for all who took time to post reviews.) I don’t have much experience with ruddered boats but have found the skeg easy to use and very reliable.
When considering a rudder, I could not get an article in Sea Kayaker magazine out of my head. In the Feb 04 issue,Michael Jeneid describes a “close call” caused by a broken rudder cable that locked his rudder in a full port turn and put him at the mercy of the current and wind. Have other people had similar failures on the water or is this just a freak event?
By the way, that same SK issue has a nice write up of my favorite paddling spot: Fontana Lake in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
toes!
so Rex, seems as tho that technique really has hit home for ya’.
good on you! If folks would only learn this trick their boat control would be sooooo much easier!
steve
Oh Yeah
’toe steering’ helps a lot. Many thanks to you and PNET for the great advice.