No problems with
my hollofill , syth. bag. Great for winter camping up here. Used to use a Down bag, but it seemed after the first night my breathing would make the bag damp and colder.
Since I got my new syth fill bag, I have camped in colder weather more comfortably.
Down, down, down…
It’s amazing how synthetics try and try to imitate mother nature’s best, but they fall short. High altitude mountaineers use down bags and suits, and they are probably more in danger of getting wet (from spindrift) than us kayakers.
Come to think of it, I’ve ditched many of my synthetics for trad materials: chucked my composite paddle for a cedar GP, my fleece hat and pants for a wool watch-cap and wool Swedish army surplus pants, and my polarguard bag for down. I guess the sealskin boat is next…
But whatever. Choose a bag that fits your price-range and sleep well.
Synthetics don’t last!
I use synthetic bags because they are cheap and less prone to moisture problems.
But they aren’t really cheap. Mine last about a year and a half before they lose most of their loft, and I buy another one. I have heard people can get 20 years out of good quality down. That will be my next bag. Plenty of ways to protect it from moisture, too.
I own a down Marmot
"Never Winter" that is good to freezing. It’s a great bag and packs to the size of a loaf of bread. I bought one of those cheap fleece Coleman sleeping bags and use it as a liner when it’s really cold. I always put my bags in a plastic bag so getting them wet is never a problem.
depends on what you mean by "last"
my 12 year old mummy bag with Liteloft is no longer good to freezing, but makes for a great summer bag now, and packs even smaller. it may have lost nearly 10 degrees © off it’s rating but has moved into another use category. it’s ratty but i like it and don’t worry about abusing it, and is plenty warm enough for when i take it out.
Synthetics don’t last
– Last Updated: Feb-24-06 3:47 PM EST –
If you tightly compress a synthetic bag to fit in a kayak hatch, it will quickly break down its loft. In an average of 30 - 45 days use the loft will be reduced to approximately to 55 - 65% of the original loft and then stabilize at this level. Since loft primarily determines warmth, a typical 20 F degree synthetic bag will average about 2 - 2.5" loft (thickness for the top layer) when new. After 30 - 45 days of kayaking use it will stop loosing loft and remain at about 1.5 to 1.25 inches of loft. Each reduced 1/2 of loft will change the temperature rating by about 20 F.
I challenge you to measure your current synthetic bag’s loft and see how close it is now to its original rating. If you don't remember the original loft, go to a shop and measure the top layer thickness of a comparable bag.
A good down bag will remain at about 90% of its original loft after about 10 years of comparable usage assuming you don’t store it compreessed.
Wiggs Bags
– Last Updated: Feb-24-06 4:00 PM EST –
Wiggy Bags - The insulation they use is Comfort Fill 7. It is the same as the original Polarguard Classic.
In summary it is extremely durable but not as light or compressible as the more recent Polarguard insulations or Primaloft. I think it would be a poor choice for someone who had small kayak hatches and wanted a warm bag.
Two materials worth mentioning
If ultra compactness and ultralight do not matter the most go seriously consider these two materials:
Polar Guard Delta and Prmaloft. Why? They both retain almost if not 100% of their insulative capacity when saturated. They also dry out very quickly, and have very good compressability and rebound, i.e., long lived when packed.
Like all products, down and synthetic, but especially for synthetics, simply do not over compress them and keep them stored compressed more than necessary.
I use down in a number of backpacking situations where on thru-hikes weight and compactness are huge factors and I can insure the down staying dry with a tarp and ultra-light bivy bag, but for kayaking, I go with a high quality polar guard delta bag.
Evan
Interesting…
“They both retain almost if not 100% of their insulative capacity when saturated. They also dry out very quickly,…”
WMI hypothermia experts disagree with the first statement and I certainly disagree with the second. While PolarGuard D may dry faster than other synthetics, I would never refer to its drying time as ‘very quickly.’
I hear this kind of sentiment about synthetic bags quite often but I’ve yet to meet someone who has actually slept in a saturated synthetic and felt comfortable in it.
I categorise these kinds of statments along with other outdoor myths such as; ‘The greatest source of heat loss from the human body is the head.’
Thirty years of adventure have taught me the value of down and the need to keep my bedroom dry regardless of its construction.
Holmes
Down or Primaloft are most compressible
I chose down for my kayak camping sleeping bag, after having owned and thoroughly used at least four synthetic bags.
The thing not only compresses much, much smaller, it is way EASIER to compress. There is no comparison with other synthetics, with the possible exception of Primaloft. I have never owned a Primaloft bag but I do have a Primaloft jacket. It definitely compresses smaller and more easily than any other synth I’ve handled. Not quite as much as down, but closer to it than anything else. Price is still high, and there are many more down bags manufactured than Primaloft bags.
I don’t think wetness is a big deal, because I always stuff my sleeping bag into a compression dry bag anyway, and then it goes in the hatch. That’s two barriers against water, which is enough to gamble on.
Consider me a down sleeping bag convert.
WMI hypothermia experts?
What does WMI stand for? Please provide a URL where they talk about this subject.
Wet sleeping bag insulation looses the following % of original loft: down - 60%, Polarguard Delta - 40%, and Primaloft Sport 15%. The drying rate is fastest for Polarguard Delta and on sunny days it is measured in multiple hours versus multiple days for down.
Being aware of the above, I use down for all my kayaking trips except my yearly multiple-month Alaska expeditions.
Yeah
All you need to do is look what the PROFESIONAL backpackers use… Wiggys the preferred choice.
Check out this site
I am with you to watch out for myths and to debunk them, but what I shared are not merely senitments or my personal experience. As much as we value personal experience here it has its biases, distortions, and myths as well as other forms of information.
I was citing some fairly rigorous research by folks who are not hired by the industry nor beholded to it. Check it out yourself on backpackinglight.com, a site devoted to shedding light not heat on these topics.
Evan
Down
I have had my goose down mummy bag since high school and that was over thirty years ago. It has been to the mountains on a motorcycle, the backyard in the snow and this past weekend on the Current river at 19 degrees. Don’t know what it’s rating is but it was sold by Herters. Remember them? Only concern is, I like more room to move than a mummy bag affords. It rides in the canoe in a drybag and is used in a dry tent. It still functions as good as new.
I remember them!
One of my catalog fantasies from my teen years. According to them, all of their gear was superior to everything else on the market.
As for bags, last year I bought a Mountain Hardware 1st Dimension (Polarguard Delta) and I swear that it has gone flat on me. I wouldn’t trust it to it’s rated 30 degF.
I have a very old Sierra Designs 200, from about 1980 that is still going strong. Only problem with it is that the 60" girth that was snug in 1980 is a straightjacket now. I just ordered a Big Agnes Lost Ranger…in down, of course.
Jim
Ever seen a wet goose?
To say goose down dosen’t work in wet enviorments is absurd. There are few on this board who have logged more nights sleeping on the the ground than I and I use nothing but goose down. Peace Joel
My guess…
…is that this bag will be harder to get in your VCP hatch than the other bag you started a thread about before. A -15F synthetic bag is going to be huge. Hopefully with the compression stuff sack, you can get it in the 9 x 16 inch hatch.
It would also be interesting to get a report back from you in a couple of years in regards to the loft this bag retains. Measure when new and then measure in a couple of years. Of course, always store any bag completely uncompressed if possible.
I still put my sleeping bag, tents, and pads in dry bags in my VCP boats–I don’t want there to be any chance for any part of this system to get wet and I almost always put a Moss tarp over the tent as well. When you’re days from civilization this could make a big difference in your level of safety and comfort if something went wrong. Just an idea to keep in mind and some will say that’s anal–oh well.
I hope you get that dry-suit soon. I’d be tempted to do the same compromise you did in that case. Which suit are you going to get?
Good luck.
a well made bag
is better than a poorly made bag. If you take care of an average bag it’s better than an abused expensive bag. How’s that for brilliant?
my preference is synthetic,but there’s something down right magical about a poofed up down bag.
Not sleeping in a puddle is a good idea.
Longevity desired
– Last Updated: Feb-27-06 3:10 PM EST –
Given the high price of quality sleeping bags, whether synthetic or down . . . I prefer that dollars spent last a while. The longevity of down is known and is outstanding. To this day, the various lab results on synthetic fills show loft deterioration at a quicker pace than I desire. I am thinking that my preference is for a high quality down bag that can absolutely kept dry with a high quality waterproof sack. With proper precautions, why should a down bag get wet?
Dew point and keeping things dry.
As stated before, I use down exclusively and have done so in extreme wet and cold environments. McKinley to SE Alaska, BC etc.
Years ago as a young guide I bought into the synthetic logic, but quickly found that the bags were just too damn big and bulky for alpine climbing, and sea touring in a Nordkapp.
Some issues: First of all, excellent protection is needed for the down bag in the kayak, but that’s not where things get wet if your at all careful and have dry compartments. It’s highly humid environments where the dew point is high. There’s so much moisture in the air and bags tend to absorb this moisture. I will admit to having damp bags on long wet trips. BUT, that’s been easy to solve. I use a very light and small synthetic overbag that fits over a light 20 degree down bag. The two pack very small, and on cold wet nights the outer bag takes the condensation / humidity, while the inner down stays totally dry. Warmer nights and I’ll just use one or the other. This is mostly surface dampness, and dries quickly with sun, or HEAVEN FORBID, a stove’s heat. I’m gonna admit that on many occassions I have moved my lit stove into my tent carefully to dry everything out. Not endorsing this practice, but can attest to it’s effectiveness. This practice is common in high altitude alpine climbing which is my past. A candle lantern can also do wonders, as can a tarp pre-pitched above where you pitch your tent.
Never compromise the breathability of your down bag, or it will condense moisture internally. Modern breathable waterproof materials help, but a light breathable nylon overbag will really help. My experience with gore tex bivy sacks has been hellish. Great as an alpine bivy tool only…IMO
It’s possible to go for days in hellish wet weather and have a dry tent.
Touring and camping in wet climates takes thought, the right equipment and methodology. Hope this helps some with the bag dilemna.