Summersong is pretty hard tracking.
Kestrel, Curtis Vagabond, Wenonah Sandpiper, Curtis Ladybug, Blackhawk Shadow or Zephyr would be more conducive to learning good single blade technique and more fun, unless you just want to go straight.
The Zephyr actually has relatively wide gunwales for a narrow hull, so might not give OP easy reach to the water.
Curtis Vagabond gunwales a bit wide up
front. Much wider than the Curtis Lady Bug.
I know of a Vagabond in IN that will likely be available soon, but it weighs in at 40 lbs.
I know they exist…
– Last Updated: May-26-14 9:30 AM EST –
but as you mention, it seems many of the top names are older boats that may require some patience to find. I know people who have owned just about all of the boats mentioned here that are sai to be size-appropriate, the operative part being "have owned". Some years ago. Many fond memories of the Ladyslipper from a friend who had one until a couple of decades back.
The Summersong is a tracker and a half, but it is also a fairly fast boat. At least the old one is - I have no idea if someone has issued an altered version of it.
I wonder if the Kestrel by Hemlock Canoes may be a prime combination of being available new enough to find one that does not need restoration, but old enough to have the right blend for the OPer for both day paddles and tripping. Their web site is dated thru January of this year, still shows the Falcon boats. Opinion?
Paddles, dimensions
– Last Updated: May-26-14 9:36 AM EST –
I agree with CH, above. Paddle quality is very important. A $50 paddle upgrade results in a better, more controllable stick while the same amount spent on a hull, new or used, is insignificant.
OP intends to both sit and kneel, so she'll need a straight blade and a bent. Paddles to consider might include Bending Branches Expressos, Grey Owl Fleetwoods and Crickets. Two good sticks might approach 20% of OP's budget.
I am amazed at recent hull suggestions and dimensional thoughts.
Mad River's Brown designed LadySlipper/Slipper has 27.5" rail, 29" max and 28" waterline molded beams, with the caveat that outwales increase rail width 1.5". Targeting what was once an average male, it is too wide in all cross sectional dimensions for the OP.
The Curtis LadyBug features, 26" rail, 29" max and 27" wl beams. I am astonished to find that Vagabond, 25.5" at rails, 27.5" max and 25.5" waterline beams is "wider up front". I missed "New Math", but a boat that's 1.5" narrower at both maximum molded and waterline beams and a half inch narrower at the rail adds to a lot narrower.
There have not been many boats designed for smaller folk, the prevalence of XS clothing on close out sale racks maybe indicating why.
Sawyers, StarLight, Curtis's MayFly and Vagabond, Mad River's Pearl, Moore's Reverie I, BlackHawk's KittyHawk and Shadow 11, Swift's Loon and Keewaydin 14, Hemlock's Kestrel, Placid's SpitFire and RapidFire, and now Colden's MayFly seem to be the entire group; eleven hulls by five designers. The latest three have been Yost pack canoes fitted with higher seats for the diminutive.
Strangely, the market has not responded well to McDucks 'Super Size" campaign either. As the solo paddler population widens we'd expect 30 to 32" wide Solo Trippers, but the 1980 Sawyer Autumn Mist and Wenonah's Wilderness are alone in the big guy market if we don't count Bell/Placid/Colden's WildFire and Merrimack's Baboosic, both with symmetrical rocker designed for more practiced practitioners.
Thanks for a good list
Worth stashing in a safe place or many of us.
It is odd that the sea kayaks are now doing better at responding to smaller sized folks than the canoes. While kayaks rule around us except for serious tripping in the Adirondacks - I think because the basic transitional boat is a heck of a lot easier for a newbie to manage than a canoe - there are parts of the country where canoes still have a strong hold. And all indications are that serious long boat kayaking is taking a hit as some of us get older and more personalized in our paddling goals, while younger folks are just trying to pay off enough debt to move out of their parents’ house.
It may be going the way of road bikes - the price of entry is a more customized, pricier model.
Maybe my Curtis Vagabond was modified
From original by the original owner, but in front of the paddler near the thwart, I remember it to be about 2" wider on the outside edge of the gunwales than the Ladybug when measure the same distance in front of the seat.
This didn’t effect sitting paddling, but did kneeling paddling, because of reaching farther forward.
Vagabond is noticeably narrower at the seat.
Being wider up front would presumably help the Vagabond ride over larger waves, but I never had mine in large waves or on a river.
Shadow 13 OR blow budget on new ?
– Last Updated: May-26-14 2:31 PM EST –
I have been bowled over by the response to my question -- my sincere thanks to everyone. And Mr. Wilson, I appreciate your thoughts on this topic and the list of boats you have put together -- invaluable advice for a short paddler!
Here is what I'm thinking of after reading this thread and looking at used canoe ads. if anyone is kind enough to follow me on this, I'd be, well, I'd be relieved and grateful.
1) I see a Shadow 13 for sale in my area by a former canoeing instructor for $1000 -- a size up from the Shadow 11 on Mr. Wilson's list. I need to look around more on the internet for info on this particular boat. Any advice -- is this too much boat for me to develop paddling skills on local lakes and to learn more about my preferences, which could inform a future purchase from the list?
2) I don't see many used canoes to my scale, and it is hard to wait when you are 5.... or 50! Of course, I could keep waiting...
3) A third alternative would be to gulp, defer house repairs, and spring for a new RapidFire (if the Spitfire isn't set up for sitting/kneeling?) or the brand-new Keewaydin 14.... It's hard to know what would suit me best without more time paddling and without paddling particular canoes -- it doesn't sound like a great idea. But my thought is that if the Rapidfire (for ex) just didn't work out for me for some reason, perhaps I could sell it used -- maybe the "loss" would be comparable to the price I would pay now for a used boat that really isn't sized for me?
Thanks for any help in thinking this through -- this forum is a fantastic resource, Martha
PS
As you can see from my title, I inserted option #2 (wait) as an afterthought. I have been looking around since late March, but without this advice. Maybe it’s worthwhile to keep looking!
BlackHawk Shadow 13
Blackhawk’s Shadow 13 is 27’ molded at the rails, 27.5 max and estimated 26-26.5 at waterline. While probably a little wider at rail, 28.5 with outwales on, and probably a little heavier than desired if in glass, it’s not a bad start point. It was more a dedicated kneeler in its day, so get a straight blade and knee pad and get started, water’s warming.
Consider the Adirondack or MidWest Canoe Symposia to kick start technique, 13-18 July, 5-7 Sept, respectively. More data on both is available at www.freestylecanoeing.com.
Another plus for both events
Is that there will be similarly sized instructors and paddlers who will have boats that you can test paddle. However it’s best for class to bring whatever you got cause during class boats are all generally in use. However rentals may be available but they might be an odd fit. (Maybe too big)
Lake canoe, primarily for sitting
Pretty slim pickings for a smaller person. And, as I’ve observed before, it’s so sad that so many of good solo alternatives are out of production.
Some of the boats mentioned are primarily kneeling canoes not primarily sitting canoes. Therefore, some of them may be too tippy (narrow at the waterline). So would a hull designed primarily for sitting on the bottom with a double paddle, such as all the “pack canoes” like the Rapidfire.
The Magic first comes to my mind as a quality lake canoe primarily for sitting, but which also can be kneeled. It’s a long solo at 16’, which is good for lake speed, and in the lightest weight layup it should be a very comfortable carry on land.
The Magic is primarily a straight ahead canoe, which is what most lake paddlers want. Some other canoes mentioned are more turnable canoes, better for moving waters or freestyle play.
The Magic was originally made by Bell Canoe Works, which is no longer in business. But Magics can be found used. The Magic is also now made new by Bell Composites, a different company with the same former owner (Ted Bell), which offers a 30 lb. version for $2300 retail. You might get a sale price at a demo day or at a fall sale.
http://www.piragis.com/bellcanoe.html
I’m not familiar with the Bell Composites Phoenix, but it might be worth investigation if you are near Piragis in Ely. Piragis would also have lots of Wenonah canoes to try out. Wenonahs are primarily lake canoes made for seated paddling.
something to think about
I don’t want to over-analyze this, but I also want to make sure I get the gist of this thread as a whole!
I had come away with the idea that a boat with narrower width is better suited for someone my height, so I can reach far enough over to paddle effectively. How do I square this with the idea that “the boats mentioned” (i.e., the narrower boats?) are primarily designed for kneeling or sitting on the bottom with a double blade?
I will be paddling mostly in lakes, and was thinking of sitting with a bent paddle and kneeling at times with a straight blade.
Am I essentially choosing between kneeling in a narrower hull and sitting in a more stable boat that is somewhat wide for me to paddle? If so, I’ll focus on getting out on the water, and make the best compromise I can find as I try out boats. If I’ve misunderstood (and I may have), please do correct me!
I have learned there is a demo day at a lake in Minneapolis coming up in early June.
Thanks again to everyone, Martha
PS. According to the link, the canoes which Ted Bell is now making again under his own name include the Magic width a maximum width of 29" and the Phoenix with a max. width of 30." So pretty big for me. http://www.piragis.com/bellcanoe.html
Too large
A lot of the suggested canoes are to large for the OP. My wife is 108lbs and the Bell Flash Fire and Mohawk solo 14 are too big. She dose not make them sit far enough into the water to handle correctly.
The Wild Fires little sister Flash Fire is a viable alternate if you are going to give in and buy new. Colden is making them now.
Would not put off house repairs. Would look for some things around the house I could sell from previous hobbies other unused items. Getting out on the water in a canoe can be a life saving/changing moment. But a house is required to be able to just live and repairs that are put off just seem to get more expensive.
Took me a little over three years of daily Craigs list searches to find a Wild Fire that I could afford. So under stand that waiting is getting old. Was getting desperate for a replacement for my Mohawk Solo 14 that is getting worn out. Was looking at Class Five Canoe’s DOLPHIN 14 in Kevlar set up for solo. Probably to big a canoe for you but new set up as a solo is within your weight and price range.
Classfive
I had never heard of Classfive until your post.
Call me skeptical, but the prices on their website make me wonder about the quality and performance of their canoes. If you buy one, please review it here.
Width is complicated. An essay.
No one knows your skill level or how tippy a boat you would prefer.
No one knows whether you will end up preferring sit & switch paddling or single-sided correction stroke paddling.
No one know whether you would prefer a hard-tracking boat or a more turnable boat.
Perhaps you don’t know the answers to these questions either. Therefore, it’s hard to recommend specific boats.
As to width, any size paddler can successfully solo paddle any size canoe. Look up Becky Mason. She solo paddles a 16’x36" tandem canoe. So do tens of thousands of other solo paddlers. They do it by paddling “Canadian style” – that is, with a permanent radical heel to the on-side. No one knows if you would prefer that style of paddling. If you do, width is almost irrelevant.
If you don’t want to paddle on a standing heel, which can only be done with single-sided correction stroke paddling, you then should think about a dedicated solo canoe narrower than, say, 30" of beam. But note there are three beam width measurements: beam at waterline, beam at gunwales, and maximum beam (which may be at the gunwales or lower down on tumblehomed shoulders).
The beam at waterline will be a good proxy for how tippy a hull will feel. Tippiness also relates to the vertical position of your center of gravity (COG). The lower your COG in a boat, the less tippy it will feel, and the narrower a waterline you can handle.
Bottom sitting, as in a kayak or pack canoe, is the lowest COG paddling position. Therefore, these solo hulls can have very narrow waterline beams – say, 24"-26".
Kneeling raises the COG, so solo canoes designed for kneeling typically have wider waterline beams – say, 26"-28".
Sitting raises your COG even more, so canoes designed primarily for sitting will probably have slightly greater waterline beams. Or, if they have a narrow waterline beam, there will usually be a quick transition to bubbled tumblehome so as to provide some immediate secondary stability.
Solo hulls designed for bottom sitting (kayaks, pack canoes) are intended to be used with double blade paddles. Yes, you can install a kneeling seat in some of these pack canoes, but raising your COG onto a kneeling seat may make the tippiness too much to bear on such a narrow waterline even for advanced canoeists. Most paddlers want to relax once in a while and not be permanently concerned with balancing never-ending twitchiness.
Solo canoes designed for kneel paddling typically have a cane or web seat. From your knees you can paddle either sit & switch or single-sided correction stroke, using a straight or bent shaft paddle. Whether you can comfortably sit on the seat of a kneeling solo, which raises your COG, without the canoe feeling too tippy, depends on your size, weight and other aspects of the hull’s design. Some of these canoes will feel comfortable to some paddlers in the seated position, but will feel too tippy to other paddlers. No one can predict this for others or even themselves. You have to get in the boat and try it.
Solo canoes designed for seated paddling will typically have a tractor seat. They cannot be kneeled comfortably. They are intended to be used with bent shaft paddles using the sit & switch method.
You may like a canoe with a relatively wide and untippy waterline beam. In that case, choose one which has a relatively narrow gunwale beam. This may allow you to reach the water at a reasonable paddle angle. And, you can always heel the canoe slightly to get more vertical with single-sided correction stroking
That’s just the width issue, coupled with the seating position issue and the paddling style issue.
You then have to decide on whether you want a hard tracking or turnable hull. Almost all sitting hulls with tractor seats will be hard tracking. Kneeling hulls with cane/web seats can vary a lot in their turnability, which isn’t really important in my opinion for lake paddling.
But that’s why I have 15 paddling boats and others here have more. No one canoe can do everything.
I would also recommend the Hemlock Kestrel for your size and seeming preferences, but as said above, they are expensive new and hard to find used.
Blackhawk Shadow…
– Last Updated: May-27-14 12:21 AM EST –
At one time or another I have owned 12 Blackhawk canoes; including one of each of the 4 different Shadow models.
I currently own 7 Blackhawks.
Am not a canoeing instructor, but I was for many years. Pricing used canoes was never part of a canoe instructor's training/curriculum.
If you are looking at the same ad for a Blackhawk Shadow for sale that I found on Craigslist; the ad clearly states that it's Blackhawk Shadow 14, NOT a Shadow 13.
$1,000.00 is "too much" for a Blackhawk Shadow 13 or 14; unless you find one of the really special ones. The special ones have wood trim that was hand carved by vestal virgins, at a convent high in the mountains near Katmandu. ;^)
Good luck in your search; seriously.
BOB
Good response
Almost everyone here is making assumptions about what you mean when you say developing single blade skills on lakes. To some that means you want to learn lots of fancy strokes with a very maneuverable boat and to others it means you want an efficient forward stroke with basic correction stroke skills in a straight tracking boat. And then there are lots of in betweens.
Like Glenn said, you probably don’t know the answers to these yet yourself. Some good questions to ask yourself would be are exercise, speed, and long distance important? If so then look more at longer, skinnier, sit and switch boats that are made to go straight. They’ll have more tumblehome which makes for a shorter reach out to the water.
Do you want to develop single blade skills so that you can make a boat dance and obey your slightest command? Then you’ll be looking for a shorter kneeling boat with more rocker. This will be difficult to control until you get some skills.
Do you want a boat you can paddle around the lake that tracks relatively straight, turns relatively easy, doesn’t need to go real far real fast, and is fairly comfortable? Then you’re looking for something in between the first two.
Will this boat be used on smaller lakes in Minneapolis on nice days or will you be taking in on trips to bigger waters where you might get caught in heavy winds? If mainly in Minneapolis then how high the sides of the canoe are above the water line isn’t such a concern beyond your paddling comfort. On bigger water with high winds that could be a bit more serious and much more difficult to control as the wind catches the canoe and blows it around.
Alan
Thank you
Thank you Glen and Alan for taking the time for a very helpful lesson. I can see that I was pulling at two strands in an elaborate web.
And yes, I do get that there are factors - some are intangibles – that can’t be “figured out” without more experience of canoeing and of a given canoe. Time for me to get on the water!
I can see from this forum that the canoeing community does its new members a real service. I appreciate the time and thought given to questions which must spring up perennially.
The current owner of the Shadow 13 is a veteran canoeing instructor in her own right, so I guess it’s true what they say about teachers showing up when the student is ready.
I’ll sign off, with my thanks, Martha
PS. And thanks for the heads-up on the events coming up – sounds like a good time to be had by all!
BWCA Outfitters
pretty much all sell thier boats every year or so and replace with new.
I’d suggest you e-mail some of those outfitters and see what they have in the way of used solo boats that you could give a test paddle, with the intention on buying one if the price is right and you liked the boat after test paddling.
line up test paddles with different boats - you should be able to find a test ride in some older Bells, Wenonahs, maybe even Souris River.
I have a Bell Merlin II in ultralight layup at 29#(my Quetico solo)- I wouldn’t use it for river tripping, but the same boat in the whitegold layup would be fine for anything that isn’t Class 2 - my boat has the sitting seat “drops”, which lowers the seat, making it hard to get my feet under it - you can get the same setup with Kneeling drops, which puts the seat higher, with enough room to get your feet under when kneeling (I know a guy with taht setup in white gold Merlin, who wuses it a lot for rivers and lakes) - point here, is that seat height can be changed if you do find a good deal on a used boat - a higher seat will feel less stable than a lower seat though.
anyways, that would be a good way for you to check out some boats, including if they are too heavy for you to carry or not.
Moore Reverie 2
Even though Patrick designed it for medium size paddlers, I think the Reverie II, at 12’ 6" length and a width of 25.5" weighing around 30lbs would be a great canoe for someone your size. Patrick’s canoes, in general, pay the biggest dividends to people willing to invest the time and patience in developing paddling skills, so you’d probably enjoy this canoe increasingly as you progressed. It’s is not a sitting boat, but it does have a comfortable pedestal you plant your behind on while kneeling, taking a good bit of weight off of your knees.