waves astern
– Last Updated: Jan-13-05 12:53 PM EST –
So is there any correlation between the way a canoe handles in a stern ferry and with waves from astern? Would a more river-oriented canoe be happier in rough open water?
depends
i’m no expert on river canoes, but it seems that most boats that are suitable for big river work have too much freeboard to handle big wind on open water.
the long and short of it
Short answer is I really don’t know.
The long answer is that my fairly unrockered Solstice needed the rudder to stay out of the troughs in a quartering sea. My moderately rockered Caribou doesn’t seem to have that problem. But my highly rockered Slasher C1 whitewater boat is an absolute bear in any kind of following sea. I always assumed that was because of that boats tendency to spin and not being able to see the waves coming.
Big difference between ocean waves and river waves. On the ocean the wave moves through the water. On a river the water moves through the waves.
BJX
– Last Updated: Jan-13-05 4:57 PM EST –
I have a video on solo canoeing the EGlades and it shows Bardy Jones with his canoe you mention. I have tried to look for it and now know who makes it,thanks.
As far as Johnny Molloy and his Old Town canoe. He happens to be a friend of mine and is a VERY experienced canoer and outdoorsman. I am NOT an experienced canoer so even if I had a state of the art canoe I probably don't have the skills to make it perform to it's designed purpose. But I am working on it.
Everytime I go out I learn something new. That's why it's taken me 2 years to get enough nerve to do a trip with it.
Kayaking is sooo much easier from the beginning....but does get complicated later.
In following seas I always load my kayak a bit stern heavy and have had good results in keeping control in really bad situations. I am hoping that this technique would also work in the canoe. Load heavy at bow in headwinds and heavy at stern for following seas. But from the posts above it didn't really work for them.
Chad my height is 5 6 and my weight is 160 which is why I chose the 14'6" boat as I had tried a Prism and really could not control it as much as the Vagabond in wind. The rules seem to be the smaller you are the smaller the boat. Really different thinking than what I am used to in the kayak world.
if the shoe fits?
i think you’ll do fine. getting canoe strokes down can take a while. as far as loading, i’d start with a similar approach to what you’ve done in kayaks. do you have the sliding pedistal seat in the vagabond? i’d say the capacity of the boat is what, 250 pounds? you could easily pack a week’s worth of gear with your size, water included.
wenonah
– Last Updated: Jan-13-05 7:26 PM EST –
does not list the weight capacity for this canoe and they are not the best of help when I ask questions. I did not get the sliding seat version and regret it.
Next weekend I will go on an overnight with it and bring some extra water just to get a feel for the boat with at least a 3 night trip load.
Thanks for the encouragement!
sliding seat
i put a wenonah sliding seat in my rob roy and absolutely love it. you could always install a slider in your boat. being able to transfer your weight is probably the easiest and safest way to change the trim while on the water. the ability to move also makes a noticeable difference when dealing with wind and waves, especially when the boat is not loaded with 80 pounds of gear.
Tommy… the following sea problem may
suggest that the seat is a speck far forward. I have a 20 year old Phoenix C1 which I no longer paddle much, but when I did, I had most trouble in rapids like Tablesaw where the waves seemed to want to push the stern around the bow. Later, after buying a slalom C1, I realized that the seat in the Phoenix was too far forward. Although my slalom boat (a Zealot) is called a “cab forward” design, the cockpit is actually a bit farther back than the Phoenix. The Zealot is not pushed around from behind, and I guess another reason is that it has even less “behind” than your Slasher.
I think I posted recently that an excellent c-boater friend, who had run the Grand Canyon in a Noah Atlantis, bought a Slasher. Soon he took it on the Ocoee, and he flipped four times and had two bad swims between Grumpys and Double Suck. I wonder whether some of the trouble people have with the Slasher is because the seat is a bit forward. Not that you can change that much…
Two very different scenarios
River waves are very different from ocean waves. I had the problem you describe with my Slasher. Enter a fast current and it loads up on the stern. Until I got used to the stern squirting it was a garranteed flip.
On the Ocean there usualy isn’t much current. My trouble there was simply holding a course. Paddling into the swells I could see them coming and adjust. When the swells were coming from behind they’d tend to spin me and I wasted a lot of energy correcting after the fact.
Though I’m truly a weanie surfer on the ocean. (Anything over 5’ is a MONSTER!) I do enjoy surfing in the Slasher. I just wouldn’t want to have to travel very far in it.
Hate to see it end.
Been lurking on this thread and enjoying it.
Beachcamper,
I hope you enjoy your trip. It sounds to me like you have enough experience to keep yourself out of trouble. I paddled a Sandpiper once and liked it. The Vagabond looks like it would be fun for the kind of things you are doing.
The general topic of canoe seaworthyness is interesting to me and my own limited feel for it is that a boat with some rocker is a help as of course is proper trim. I paddled in some dicey following waves in the BWCAW this spring and one of the things I remarked about to the Bell Canoe rep I spoke with later was how easily I found it to control the stern. I could let the boat get dangerously close to parallel with the waves (so as to progress toward a lee shore) but also swing the stern back perpendicular to the waves when bigger ones approached. The boat, a Northwind, did inspire confidence in those conditions.
I’m still figuring things out in my Swift Shearwater solo canoe, but she seems to do fine in the waves if I am triming her right and does better with a load. Wish I could compare her to a Bell Magic in the wind and waves.
Regarding the Shearwater
My Shearwater is pushed around by breezes/wind from the rear when I daytrip and have less than 200 lbs. onboard. When I know it’s going to be windy, I snap on a spray cover and take along two 2 1/2 gallon waterbags to lay near the bow and stern. The extra 40 lbs. dampens the ends and makes the boat less quick to spin on it’s relatively flat bottom. It’s rocker (2"bow, 1"stern) and hull “fullness” are to “blame” of course, but they combine to allow one to manuever with loads up to 300 -325 lbs. while tripping. As a tripping boat, it’s superb in waves up to a couple of feet. Beyond that, the “particulars” of the rough water situation dictate it’s suitability for being out there. She’ll generally ship water over the side before taking it on over the bow. One time, I used it light with leeboards set backwards at 45 degrees to act as a double skeg about 3/4 ways back from the bow. THAT totally solved the rear being blown sideways. Although I sometimes wish for the speed of a Prism or Magic, I feel that the Shearwater is their better for tripping in conditions with both rough water and current to contend with. I think it’s one of the most “seaworthy” solos available. Tough too … in exp. kevlar/wood construction. I row mine using a beanbag as a seat and average around 4.2-4.4 mph with a modest cruising effort. You have to work a bit to stay at a 5 mph average … not really worth it while tripping.
Thanks Stap
Sounds like my experience. I’m close to 220 by myself and 240 or so with standard day trip gear. I did load her up with tripping weights a month or so ago and had it up to around 325 this was in a strong wind and I was impressed with the manuverability.
I think this points up for the general discussion, that even a canoe that may be at the upper end of seaworthiness for a solo still takes experience and experimentation to allow its optimum use in the wind.
It also supports what Beachcamper suggests regarding the match of paddler and boat size. He’d need to have a 50 lb pack just to match my body weight and still probably doesn’t have my reach. Difficulty controling a 16-17 footer that is “more seaworthy” might make it less seaworthy for someone Nessmuk’s size.
good grief!
if you cant move your weight around in windy conditions, well, you might as well bein a kayak. weight forward upwind, weight aft downwind and i dont mean a couple of inches, i mean however much it takes to get the boat to handle. that said, your windage can easily overpower any paddler in 25 kn and waves. in fact you’d have a challenge in a sea yak in those conditions.
photos
Heres 20 photos of a decked canoe in rivers and big water. Plenty of room to move about.
Even add a sail if the wind gets just right.
http://www.krugercanoes.com/toc.htm
nm
thanks
I have learned alot with this post and hope the discussion does not end.
weight, waves and wind
moving weight is a big factor for me. i put a sliding wenonah seat in my rob roy and it handles much better when the wind and waves come up, especially when i’m going light on a day trip.
conditions wise, i can paddle on larger bays and actually make way in 25 knots. water here is shallow, so the waves are typically a foot to a foot and a half. they’re small, but nasty. they tend to form into a constant, rolling surf that pounds your boat every couple of seconds when paddling into weather.
i’ve paddled the boat in open Gulf waters in those same conditions with a load. wish i’d had a spray cover, but only once did i feel like the boat was getting tippy.
on the trim side i typically store gear toward the center and out to within a couple feet of the bow and stern. i like having weight in toward the ends, but i’ve found that my boat will ride up and over waves better if i put a small float bag between my gear and the bow/stern. when the packs are completely against the bow and stern the boat tends to dive into waves. that’s the only conditions that have caused me to take on water from the bow. those conditions were three foot incoming tide waves in a pass with 30 knot winds behind pushing the waves in the same direction.
Tranquility Solo with rudder?
– Last Updated: Jan-23-05 10:44 PM EST –
This really appealed to me as a kayaker...but it may be an abomination to knowledgeable canoers.
http://www.redrockstore.com/tranquility.html
Fitted out with a spray deck I think this canoe is pretty close to what I envision as the "perfect" boat for the areas I paddle. What do you guys think?
BTW: Test of my wenonah was canceled due to very high winds so I took out the sea kayak instead for the weekend trip.
Go For It!!
There is a lot to like about that boat. You may find mixed feelings on this board about the optional rudder, but I’ve heard that using a rudder is more efficient than using control strokes, and in high wind, anything that increases efficiency is good. Not sure how durable that rudder mount looks, but there are always ways to improve things if necessary.
Souris River canoes are a little hard to come by around here, so even though they have some really nice boats, I really didn’t give them a thought back when I bought my Wenonah. I suppose you have to order them direct. I bet this would make a dandy solo BWCA boat.
Interesting
I’d seen the Tranquility and the rudder rig but hadn’t thought of the application for coastal paddling. If you think the rudder is a good option for you maybe you’d want to see if it would work on other canoes as well. If it works for you, who cares what anyone else thinks about it.
I paddled a Souris Q17 a couple of years ago on a scout trip in Canada and was very impressed with the boat’s design materials and construction quality. Would love to own a Q16.
WildernessWebb and Mickwood have both owned Q16’s and may have both paddled the Tranquility. Mick has tons of experience with Kruger Seawinds, which have rudders of some sort. So he might have good info. on the subject of rudders . If you haven’t done so yet, you might want to start a thread specifically on the Tranquility and the rudder system.
Very interesting!
Any idea how the rudder is controled? Foot pedals?
Somebody had a Mad River Independence with a skeg a while back. Seemed like a good idea to me.
Like any of these, I’d want to try it before I spent that kind of money.