500speed versus peak speed
http://www.laniercanoe2003.org/laniercanoe2003/results/Race152.pdf
Almost every paddler in the final last year was under 1:40 for the 500m. The world record is somewhere closer to 1:30.
That means these guys are averaging over 11mph for a duration of 1.5minutes. Their peak potential speed is certainly higher by a good bit. One can only maintain peak power output for a few seconds. What is the speed of a runner running the 100m versus one running the 800? Same thing with kayak. Different energy systems at play. Can’t hold a 100m pace for an 800m event. Assuming that 500m speeds reflect top speed doesn’t work.
Q600 speed, yours not representative
I turn a flatwater 10k in 50-55minutes in a Q600 which is an average speed of 7-7.5mph. I can garrantee you that my all-out sprint speed is at least somewhat faster than that though I haven’t measured it. I do know that my cadence all-out is about 40% higher than my cadence at 10k race pace. Given that the wing paddle slips very little I’d guess that my all out sprint is probably 30-40% faster than my 10k pace. So that’s what, 9-10mph all-out speed (20-30seconds to failure) for a Q600 which is heavier and shorter than the Endurance and I’m no Chalupsky.
paddling twice as hard
does not compute to twice as fast in fact it could be slower than a smooth measured cadence. boat shapes have limits that can be temporarily overcome by waves, wind, and anaerobic muscle these claims of amazing speed should be considered in the context of the conditions. i can do a 9 mph gps in a rec boat here on the beaufort river.
effort vs speed,
“paddling twice as hard does not compute to twice as fast”
Really, I would have never guessed. Is that why I can sustain 7mph for over an hour but can only push 9-10mph for 20seconds or so? Then again, I didn’t realize that 9-10mph was 2X7mph.
I’d say my sustained power output during the 10k is about 30-40% of peak wattage, if that (go to the gym and try to bench press 40% of your max for an hour non-stop. Can’t do it. A muscle can only sustain loads aerobically that are far below the peak wattage generated in strong typeI fast twitch contractions.) That means I’m more than doubling my power output to increase my cadence by 40% and make the boat go 9-10mph versus the 7-7.5 that I sustain for the duration of a 10k time trial. 60++% increase in power output for 30-40% in speed gains once exceding “hull speed” seems realistic to me.
As for cadence and speed. Given same reach length, similar air time, clean catch, no cavitation, and clean exit, faster cadence = more speed. Sure if you flail and get sloppy, a fast cadence isn’t going to garner more speed. Of course when paddling very clean, you get more speed for less effort and slower cadence. But provided technique doesn’t break down, faster cadence means faster boat.
For sprinting, a fast cadence is required. Above “hullspeed” the boat decelerates very rapidly between strokes (thanks to all that drag that occurs at those speeds) so you’ve got to keep the power on to make the boat move.
“boat shapes have limits that can be temporarily overcome by … and anaerobic muscle”
And isn’t “anaerobic muscle” what we’re talking about being used to achieve peak speed?
right on!
7.9 Knots in a Glider
Paddling on flat water and using a Speedmate knotmeter and conventional Vituddens Euro paddle, I recorded 7.9 kts. (not mph) in a Glider. This was a momentary max speed (displayed as such on the readout) that I could not have maintained for more than a second or two. Altho I did not happen to notice the 7.9 during the sprint, I did see 7.8 on the display. I don’t know the exact conversion but I think this would equate to around 8 mph. It surprised me since I had not expected such a high max speed from the Glider.
Ferd
7.9 KTS = 9.09 MPH = 14.63 KPH
Height, Weight, & Speed
Afolpe & Scombrid (and everyone else) - a personal question: How much do you guys weigh? How tall are you (maybe better: what’s your arm span)?
My speeds, admittedly not fast - are more like daveshames ranges. The difference from your speeds is no doubt largely due to near zero training except a nearly weekly 15+ mile paddle - and also I think because at 210 (30 or so extra fat) I have to push a lot of water at any decent speed.
I’m also only @ 5’ 8" (reach is closer to 5’ 11") - I have heard (in surf ski circles) that anyone under 6’ will never be super fast. Good, yes, fast yes, but not front of the pack with any consistency.
I can’t do anything about height/arm span, but weight’s another story.
Displacement is a big factor in all types of drag - but rarely discussed as for good paddlers who are in shape - it’s pretty much a constant (their weight is level - and they already have the lightest gear). For the rest of us, dropping some weight could make a big difference.
I estimate if I dropped 30 lbs I’d decrease drag significantly (10-12% less total displacement = a few square feet less wetted surface & less wave making) and think that would have to buy me a decent speed jump (not to mention more blood to the muscles - less to fat cells).
So - curious how much you speed demons weigh - and how long your reach, particularly those paddling Q700s and similar!
biostats and speed
I’m 5’9" with a fairly short arm span and I weigh 175-180 depending on hydration and the state of my glycogen stores. I could probably stand to be lighter for marathon.
With my short arms my cadence is noticably faster than some paddlers. However, after a 30k race with better paddlers than myself I made some technique adjustments that have slowed my cadence a shade (adjustment was primarily a longer reach and more focus on cleaning up my catch).
Speed in the kayak is all about technique first. Next speed is directly related to strength to weight ratio and endurance, both aerobic endurance and strength endurance (the ability of the muscle to work under high blood lactate levels and to clear lactate when intensity drops). Strength to weight ratio is expecially a factor at sprint speeds where the athlete is forcing the boat to run above its designed displacement “hullspeed”. I know in my personnal experience that I can’t push my Q600 over hullspeed if I’m carrying much of any gear but I can cruise all day at 5-6mph loaded or unloaded with the only noticeable difference being slower accellerations in the loaded boat. The load has to be light to break the 6mph barrier in a boat with a 16’ LWL.
Body size and sprint:
http://www.sprintkayak.com/files/ACKL.pdf
Interesting Abstracts:
http://www.ffck.org/renseigner/savoir/medical/biblio/bibliosom.htm
Another interesting read:
http://www.sprintkayak.com/K200.pdf
personals
gee guys, i don’t know how my wife will feel about all this. anyway, i’m 5’11", 180. down from as much as 204. much faster after dropping the weight. planning on seeing if i can get back to my riding weight, around 170-5. arm span longer than height but i have no formal measurement.
scombrid- man, if you are ever up this way to go to lkc or something, drop me a line. i’d love to chase you around lanier. bring your ski- i don’t have a k1.
af
Thanks
Thanks for the conversion.
For the record, since somebody was asking, I’m 5’ 6" and about 168 lbs. I don’t know my arm reach but it’s short.
FWIW, if I can get 9mph out of a Glider, it seems entirely reasonable to me that Oscar (who is probably twice as strong as I am, maybe more) could get an additional 2 mph in the Epic Endurance which I would guess is fairly similar to the Glider in terms of speed, maybe even slower?
Ferd