Boreal
I also had a Boreal Nanook and it was very rudder dependent. I was lucky and the dealer let me trade it in. He charged me $400 but I used the kayak for a couple of months so it was a fair deal. I also got no satisfaction from Boreal they are hard to deal with. I traded the Nanook for a Boreal Ellesmere which was a nice kayak.
Boreal Design
Just a question. What was wrong with all your Boreal Design kayaks that all of you were not happy about and needed customer service help in the first place?
Dave
boreal
The Nanook will not track with out the rudder and its hard to turn also. Boreal would not admit to this and seem to have a chip on there shoulders when you bring it up. I will not deal with them again and could not recommend them to any one else. But in all fairness I did like the Ellesmere and there kayaks are well made. They do have a design problem with the Nanook and they should fix it.
Test paddle for a rudder?
Please explain to me why a test paddle would tell you whether you need a rudder.
If you think you need a rudder when the water is calm and the wind is low, hopefully the dealer will sell you lessons rather than a rudder.
If you are having problems with control when the water is “fun” and/or the wind is erratic, how do you know whether its the nature of the kayak or a lack of a rudder.
Uhhhh…
If the nature of the kayak is to track badly in strong wind and waves, the owner might want a rudder to compensate.
If the owner takes lessons and learns to make a boat track in stiff breezes that’s fine. A rudder still gives him or her the option of taking a break and letting the feet do some of the work.
Some folks putter and fish. Some folks try to go fast and/or far. If you’ve ever ‘bonked’ on a bike or in a boat you’ll understand why JackL refers to a rudder as a safety device. And yes, bonking happens to the best. Lance Armstrong did it in a Tour of France stage.
(You saw this shtuff coming, dintya Liv2?)
Marketing
They offer a rudder to capture sales from the people who think it’s not a real kayak if it doesn’t have one.
Read my Nanook Review here P-Net
Read my Nanook Review here on P-Net. Then send me an e-mail if you have any specific questions.
Rudder, Vs Skeg, Vs None!
A rudder or skeg is to help the paddler overcome either a deficiency in the kayak, or a lack of skills, or adverse weather conditions.
In most cases, on calmer water, a properly designed flat water kayak will track reasonably straight without either a Skeg or Rudder. Leaning a kayak to the oposite side you want to turn, will help the kayak turn a shorter radius. (Lean right, & turn left, etc.) If you are not good at leaning, or still are learning, a rudder can help you turn. If you are a novice kayaker, a rudder can help you go straight too.
The ideal situation is to be able to go straight and to turn without using a rudder or skeg. They both add drag to the boat in the water, slowing it down some, and adding to the effort needed to paddle it.
A skeg is used on a kayak to help it go straighter. My Impex Assateague is designed to go reasonably straight, and with some lean, it turns well for an almost 18’ long kayak. Strong winds tend to make the bow of the kayak turn into the wind. This is great for safety, as a boat with the bow into the wind is less likely to capsize, but by putting down the amount of skeg needed at the time, I can offset the effects of the wind and go any direction I want. Since this kayak has some rocker in the hull to make it easier to turn, I use the Skeg to help me go straight on windy days.
All kayaks are a compromise of stability, tracking, turning, and speed. If you gain some of one, you lose some of the other. After test paldling 10-15 different kayaks, you will begin to understand all I wrote.
Before buying a kayak, you need to understand what YOU want to do with it. If you want to paddle small lakes or creeks, a shorter, wider recreational kayak will be great for you, If you want to go out and paddle 10-15 miles or more at a time, you need a narrower, longer “touring kayak”.
If you are good at leaning a kayak to make it turn, but only need help in the wind, a Skeg might be for you. If you are having trouble test paddling a kayak, and can’t keep it going straight, or to get it to turn, TAKE SOME PADDLING LESSONS! 
Then if all else fails, get a kayak with a rudder. The rudder will overcome the “skills” defiency.
Good Luckl!
Rocket science???
"If you are having problems with control when the water is “fun” and/or the wind is erratic, how do you know whether its the nature of the kayak or a lack of a rudder. "
Simple! You drop the rudder and paddle for 5-10 min, then to bring the rudder up out of water in (the same) windy condition and paddle another 5-10 min, to see if the rudder makes controlling that particular kayak easier or not.
What’s so hard to understand?
By the same token, if you drop and bring up the rudder in calm condition, you probably notice little difference with or without rudder. So you conclude you don’t need a rudder for calm condition.
More over, if you can’t control the boat even with a rudder, you should know enough that kayak is NOT for you!
This is quite simply one of the…
best analogies I have read in a while here. Hope to use it someday.
Dogmaticus
Check out
Check out what Greg Barton has to say about rudders at epickayaks.com. Sorry I don’t have the URL.
B
Here it is…
– Last Updated: Mar-02-06 8:11 PM EST –
Here's the link: http://www.epickayaks.com/tips/details.aspx?nid=689&id=2482
Here's the long version, a good read, especially for those who think anyone with a rudder should take some classes.
But hey, I like strapping stuff to my deck and I have guns that I sometimes carry on my kayak! Heaven forbid! Oops, almost forgot, I'm christian too.
Use of Rudders
Many sea kayakers think it is "bad" to use a rudder. They are concerned that:
1. A rudder will create more drag and slow the kayak down.
2.The rudder is a crutch, and any good paddler should be able to paddle without one.
3.The pedal system used with a rudder prevents the proper use of legs while paddling.
4. The rudder can potentially break.
Let's examine these claims one by one, and then discuss when a rudder is important.
First, it is true that a rudder creates drag in the water. However this drag is greatly overestimated by many. A well designed rudder will add less than 2% total drag to a kayak. In comparison, modifying your stroke to correct or maintain your course results in anywhere from 30 to 70% forward power loss! Very minor corrections will result in 5 to 10% less power than a fully efficient forward stroke. Even good paddlers in calm water are subconsciously making very minor corrections on many of their strokes. Thus it is actually much more efficient to take a consistent 2% drag increase than to be losing an average of 5% or more forward power on your stroke. All the top paddlers in flatwater and open ocean racing use rudders as they have proven time and time again in competitions to be more efficient than a skeg or going without a rudder. Olympic sprint races are held on a straight course in calm water and ruddders are optional. However, you'll be hard pressed to find anybody paddling without a rudder in high level comoetitions. They know that the fastest way to paddle is to put maximum focus on an efficient forward stroke and let the rudder ensure they are traveling in a straight line. In the same way, engineers have found it much more efficient to use a rudder on an airplane, rather than attempt to turn the engines for directional control.
2. Everybody should learn to paddle with and without a rudder. That will teach you how to lean the kayak and use your paddle to steer. These techniques in combination with a rudder will give you even more precise control. If you want to paddle without a rudder to experience the "purity" of paddling without help, that's fine. However, most people will find that a rudder will help them paddle easier and more efficiently in all conditions.
3. In the old days of push-pull steering systems, point 3 was a valid concern. An efficient forward stroke involves pushing your leg on the same side you are paddling. With an old style pedal system, this results in unintentionally oversteering the boat on each stroke. However, new steering systems have pedals that are independent of the foot brace. A paddler can push with the main part of their foot, and use their toes when necessary for steering. Modern efficient pedal systems allow proper use of leg drive and control of a rudder at the same time.
4. The final point is yes, a rudder can break. However, a well designed and maintained rudder system will rarely cause problems. You should check your rudder, lines and pedals from time to time to ensure they are in good working order and replace anything that is worn . This is especially true before a long trip or important race. At Epic, we're working on new steering systems that willl be even more reliable and trouble free in the future.
When is a rudder most important? A rudder becomes even more helpful as kayaks get longer and conditions get rougher. While a rudder is a convenience for calm water paddling, it will definitely change your experience for the better in rough or windy conditions. A good paddler travelling downwind with waves can cut back and forth to find the best wave positions, maximizing their surfing gains - while those without a rudder or using a skeg often find themselves fighting a sideways broach. Experienced ocean paddlers such a Oscar Chalupsky are masters at this and will leave anybody paddling without a rudder in their wakes!
Shorter boats are easier to paddle without a rudder, and can correct their course with much less effort. A rudder is not as necessary with well designed kayaks under 13' in length. Our touring kayaks were designed to perform well with or without a rudder. Our Epic V10 surf ski was specifically designed to be used with a rudder. For a 21' boat, it is amazingly agile when turning with a rudder. However, as this boat was designed to maximize performance with a rudder, it is a real challenge to paddle if the rudder is removed.
At Epic kayaks. our aim is to use technology to give you a better, more efficient and more enjoyable paddling experience. We challenge the outdated theory held bvy many that because early Aleutian and Greenland kayaks did not have rudders, there is no place for them on modern kayaks. Early automibiles had hand crank starters and wooden wheels. You rarely see people driving these today, as technology advances have made driving a car much easier, safer and more accessible for everybody. Likewise there is nothing wrong with using an efficient rudder to help you enjoy your paddling experience. Most people will find that a rudder will help them paddle easier and more efficiently in all conditions. Ultimately the choice of whether and when to use a rudder is up to you.
See you on the water!
Greg Barton
To rudder or not to rudder
If you are happy with your sweep stroke, I would say “buy the beer”. You said you don’t need a rudder on your 13’ SOT, so you must have some sort of sweep stroke.
In the photo the rudder looked a bit short…I would suspect it may spend a great deal of time out of the water in waves. (More beer money to replace it with a longer rudder?)
I have 13 kayaks; 2 have rudders (Necky Phantom, VCP Aleut Sea II tandem) 2 have skeg rudders (Huki and Black Marlin surf skis). Romany and all the assorted whitewater boats have nothing. Explorer has a retractable skeg, and when I get another Seda Glider it will have a rudder. Some boats need 'em, some don’t. Some boaters need 'em, some don’t. It’s no big deal. Like the man eluded too, it’s YOUR beer money.
Cheers
Greg Barton
Whenever this discussion surfaces some always brings Greg’s views into it.
Flatwater Olympic racers have totally different requirements than the average sea kayaker who spends his time in waves,surf,rock
gardens and landing ,launching on beaches.
Those Epic boats are finely tuned racing rockets where balanced strokes with no corrective actions mean seconds or fractions of seconds in a race. Greg is perfectly correct in his article regarding what he is trying to acheive but few of us are hardcore racers,most of us like to tour and play.
I don’t care for rudders on a touring hull but if I was a serious racer,which I’m not I would buy
a race boat with an understern rudder immediately
If I paddled one of those boats I’d tear it off on the first beach landing of the day.
One of the big downfalls of the Feathercraft and other stern end rudders is that they raise up out of the water on every wave crest,just when you need it the most.
Skegs and rudders are really just trim tabs with two basic kinds,skeg style with no steering capabilities and the rudder style where the angle of attack can be adjusted with your feet but whichever you like it should be installed underneath about three feet from the stern not flailing uselessly in the wind every 5 to 7 seconds which happens when paddling in big seas.
Bert
Final Answer
I really, really appreciate everyones help with this delicate rudder debate. I am now offically confused. lol Not really though. Since I am going with a 13’ kayak, I have decided not to go with one at this point. I may be sorry, but I have lots of experience with no rudder on my
14’ 7" sit on top and know what to expect. Thanks again.
PaddlingDave
It comes with a rudder!
See the web link you posted, has a small rudder.
Just test paddle it first!
Make sure you test paddle it first!
Just because you liked your SOT without a rudder, that doesn’t mean anything concerning the new kayak you are looking at. They are two totally different designs, made to do different things.
Test paddle your new one a couple different times before you buy it, Just to be sure.
Happy Paddling!
Buy it with no rudder
I think you’ll be happy without but if you change your mind one can be retrofitted later.
Cheers
Bert