Or the Green river through
Stillwater canyon to the confluence of the Colorado. Jet boat shuttle back. Awesome hiking opportunities, as well. Mostly a flatwater venue.
Dogmaticus
Age and strength
I took my scouts on 2 long trips canoe camping in 1997-1998. High adventure means about 14 years old or more, and big enough to handle the stress for many days. We took canoes to mix and match paddlers, for variety and speed leveling. A tired young kid alone in a kayak against a head wind is a bad problem.
A trip of this length can be great fun, but I would recommend canoes and start early in the planning, conditioning, and paddling skills.
Good advice
A mix of K1 and K2 is a good advice. Without any experienced guides or leaders you are probably stuck with waterways that are equally well suited for canoes.
Mixing K1 and K2
I don’t know. I’ve done a lot of such mixed craft trips. My experience has been it ended up being the worst of both worlds instead.
It might be easier to carry a pair of tow belts to deal with one or two tired kids than to tow a fully loaded canoe.
K2s beats towing on the long trip
– Last Updated: Sep-15-09 3:15 PM EST –
It seams we have very different experiences.
A mix of K1 and K2 offers the opportunity pair up uneven paddlers so all kayaks keep roughly the same pace. My experience is that it´s very helpful when you take out beginner groups on a multi-day trip. Towing for several days isn't all that fun, neither is cutting the trip short or leaving someone behind. For a more experienced and even group you usually don't experience the same problem.
On a one week trip with 33 paddlers ranging from almost beginner to very experienced and various ages and fitness levels, we made very good use of our four K2s this summer.
Some pics here:
http://gallery.me.com/zackrisson#100196&bgcolor=black&view=grid
I should probably point out that I don't suggest mixing kayaks and canoes.
Sorry, my mistake
I was thinking of mixing kayak and canoe which I felt is the worst of both world.
You’re right, mixing K1 and K2 is less of a problem and probably a good option.
On the other hand, this being a Scout trip, shouldn’t the kids be expected to perservea even in difficult condition? It seem the kids should all be in K1’s except perhaps just 1 or 2 K2 used as “safety nets”?
Stupid, crazy, suicidal and law-suitable
I am very familiar with NorCal and began kayaking 30 years ago in San Jose. I wouldn’t go anywhere near most areas of the open Pacific Ocean – most especially as a trip leader, and most particularly with novices.
I’d also stay away from big commercial rivers such as the lower Sacramento.
Instead, consider inland lakes, flatwater stretches of interior rivers, and canoeing up the mouths of tidal rivers. There are California guide books for lake paddles and quiet coastal paddles.
Also consider traveling from place to place by vehicle to camp out and then doing day paddles, rather than trying to camp out of canoes or kayaks.
You could do two good day trips just on the American River above Sacramento. Or you could do three nice days on different sides of Lake Tahoe, which has at least one kayak rental place. Paddling into Emerald Bay from Smith Park is especially beautiful. Stay close to shore, in groups, and don’t take risks. You could swing from Tahoe down to Mono Lake, which is like paddling on the moon, and then swing up through Yosemite to the high mountain lakes.
Alternatively, you could spend two or three days on the Russian River, which is user friendly at normal levels, if not always wildernessy.
Continuing over to the NorCal coast, you could go up and then back down the tidal rivers, such as the Big River in Mendocino, which has a canoe/kayak rental place at its mouth. Not too far away are the Navarro, the Eel and others. This would allow you to teach the scouts about timing tidal flows and the Rule of Twelfths. These would also be relatively safe, scenic, redwoody and wildernessy. They are also near some protected Pacific waters, such as those around Humboldt Bay.
You could then shoot over from Arcata into the Trinity Alps and spend many days paddling on reservoirs such as Lewis and the bigger ones.
I’ve done all of the above and more in California, safely and enjoyably – 30 years ago as a novice kayaker-canoeist, and five years ago as a solo old man in an outrigger canoe.
Thanks
I’d like to thank y’all for the info. I probably have 60+ hours into just trying to figure out what a feasible trip would be.
I’m going to bundle up a bunch of replies to folks in one posting.
We won’t do ocean trip along the Northern California coast.
I talked the Scouts who are candidates for this trip last week. They seem a little daunted by the commitment but they’re mulling it over.
I’ll talk to the parents next week. Cost will likely be an object. I think I’ve lost one Scout because of that already but I’m not sure that I would take him on this trip anyway due to lack of focus and maturity.
I’m guessing the total cost for the trip, preparation trips, lessons, equipment, and transportation to be in the $800 to $1,500 per person range. If we have to hire a guide, the expense is likely high enough that we’ll do something else.
To SeaDart: IMNSHO, a five day trip is not long enough. Scouts is a teaching organization. The Scouts are along to have fun. I go so that those young men learn teamwork, preparation, self-reliance, and sometimes a little about leadership. In other words, a kayak trip is not the goal, however a kayak trip may be a way of meeting the goals.
IME, a week is the absolute minimum that provides adequate opportunities for personal growth. YMMV Even two weeks is just barely long enough for a lot of young men to really start taking care of themselves and start integrating into a team. A trip that they can run with some (usually) gentle coaching meets those goals, a trip that they don’t run doesn’t meet those goals.
To Yakwise. Thanks for the pointer to the ACA. That was a huge help. I didn’t realize that some people use “canoe” and “kayak” interchangeably. Their curriculum looks like 70 to 80 hours of training to reach intermediate proficiency. Presumably there would be additional practice time, though the curriculum looks repetitive at first glance.
To Richard295. The Sacramento River sounds like a great trip, but I’ve only been able to find 3, not very good, places to camp in about 370 miles. We probably can’t fit the whole trip in the available time but a truncated version is still possible. If the trip happens, I’ll try harder to find campsites. I don’t want to plan on stealth camping on people’s land without permission, though we have done that to keep an urgent situation from turning into a an emergency. I know of some paddling groups with local knowledge that might be able to provide advice …
That route should have some good side trips too. Like the Railroad Museum in Sacramento.
To abc: I know that I’m not yet able judge relative risk of kayaking. That’s why I posted here in the first place! However, I’ve had some way too adventurous adventures alongside ski boats in a much wider channel than the Sacramento River. It’s not something that I want to repeat.
To bowrudder: Thanks for the pointer to Deep Trouble. I bought a copy and I’ve read it. The stories in there seem to mostly be of people who were grossly unprepared.
It seems like at least half of the incidents would have been not been interesting if people just dressed for immersion, wore a PFD, secured their flotation in the kayak, and practiced rescues in rough water. The one skill set that looks hard to develop is identifying tide rips on charts and in the water.
Someone suggested double kayaks as a more stable alternative to single kayaks. In Deep Trouble, the author states in several places that double kayaks don’t float high enough in the water to keep the coaming out of the water after a capsize making bailing impossible. Is this still a problem with current models?
Doubles also would be a lot heavier and presumably more difficult to handle after a capsize. The kayak weighs more and there will be about twice as much gear in it.
Also, in Deep Trouble, a lot of bad situations got worse because the kayaker’s flotation floated away. Does that problem still exist with a kayak with fixed bulkheads? Losing a hatch cover could be a big problem, how often does that happen?
Also thanks to Glenn for contacting me off list to discuss realities.
Thanks again
Some answers
"Thanks for the pointer to Deep Trouble. I bought a copy and I’ve read it. The stories in there seem to mostly be of people who were grossly unprepared."
Or under-skilled. You may also have noticed that it was often a combination of several small factors or bad decisions that rapidly created a dire situation. it is amazing how quickly this can happen on the water.
“It seems like at least half of the incidents would have been not been interesting if people just dressed for immersion, wore a PFD, secured their flotation in the kayak, and practiced rescues in rough water.”
Now there’s a thought! Of course, you’re absolutely correct. Most of the rest of them could have been avoided through better judgment, but that takes time, training and experience.
“The one skill set that looks hard to develop is identifying tide rips on charts and in the water.”
I guess it depends on the waters in your area, but I haven’t even seen a tide rip around here (New England). While they certainly occur, they’re not usually a major problem when you’re paddling, but are more of a hazard for swimmers.
“Someone suggested double kayaks as a more stable alternative to single kayaks. In Deep Trouble, the author states in several places that double kayaks don’t float high enough in the water to keep the coaming out of the water after a capsize making bailing impossible. Is this still a problem with current models?”
If the boat has three sealed compartments, it shouldn’t be a problem. However, rescues with large, heavy boats like tandems can be difficult and require practice and coordination.
“Doubles also would be a lot heavier and presumably more difficult to handle after a capsize. The kayak weighs more and there will be about twice as much gear in it.”
Exactly, plus you’re trying to get two people into the boat, rather than one.
“Also, in Deep Trouble, a lot of bad situations got worse because the kayaker’s flotation floated away. Does that problem still exist with a kayak with fixed bulkheads?”
Not generally, but a leak in a compartment could pose a problem if the boat doesn’t have backup flotation. If it’s full of gear packed in dry bags, that helps. If nothing else, the bulkheads prevent the loss of whatever flotation you have.
“Losing a hatch cover could be a big problem, how often does that happen?”
If they’re tethered, almost never. Probably the most likely loss scenario is with with two-piece hatch systems that have a hard cover (typically tethered) over a neoprene inner cover (often not tethered). Lose the inner cover and the hatch is no longer watertight.
Most boats these days use molded rubber covers that are very reliable, though some (VCP) deteriorate with age and can fail. I had one of mine fall apart unexpectely a couple of weeks ago. It gave me the opportunity to actually use the neoprene emergency cover that I’d been carrying for years. It worked fine.
If you simply follow the scout motto “Be Prepared”, you’ll avoid most of the common pitfalls. It seems like you’re well on our way at this point.
TW
Your group should be able to do a flat water trip with just the intro to kayaking. I think the guide will need to have more experience, be certified, and has led trips.
Re: Deep Trouble, the very first story had a beginner who could paddle fine with a group of experienced kayakers, they ran into some bad currents and weather, and the beginner got blown off course and died, despite wearing a PFD, etc.
Perhaps contact some of the outfitters and see what they can put together for a week trip per scout?
I can’t imagine an outfitter letting a big chunk of money walk out the door for a week trip.
You can end up putting hundreds of hours into just the equipment.
You really need a lot more experience that takes more time than what you are planning, although I really hope you can pull it off!
Perhaps you can rent the equipment and hire your own guide?
good luck
sorry to single out
– Last Updated: Sep-21-09 2:30 PM EST –
one point BNystrom.. but I think you may have tide rips confused with rip tides?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tide+rips
A quick Google search for "tide rips and New England":
Eastport to Cape Cod:
"Particular caution is necessary for small craft crossing Penobscot Bay and the mouths of the Kennebec, Sheepscot, and New MeadowsRivers when the wind is contrary to the current because heavy tide rips are encountered."
....
"I guess it depends on the waters in your area, but I haven't even seen a tide rip around here (New England). While they certainly occur, they're not usually a major problem when you're paddling, but are more of a hazard for swimmers."
Praticality
– Last Updated: Sep-21-09 7:52 PM EST –
"We won't do ocean trip along the Northern California coast."
Stay away from the coast, you avoided half of the sitations in "Deep Trouble". Now, you can focus on something that's at least remotely achievable.
"I've had some way too adventurous adventures alongside ski boats in a much wider channel than the Sacramento River. It's not something that I want to repeat. "
I can't imagine what sort of "adventure" you could have had with ski boats. Boat wakes are the minimum condition you must be able to handle comfortably for any kind of extended trip. You can easily find yourself encountering wind wave as big as the wake of a jet ski on a big river. So, if you're not ready for a bit of "action" from the jet skis, you really don't belong to a multi-day trip on even the inland rivers! (now that we've discarded the coastal trip idea).
I'm under the impression a Scout trip isn't a pleasure cruise. So you need to work to prepare for it. You have nearly a year to do so. (BTW, if you can do it in September, the water will be much warmer and weather probably better too). By and large, you'll need to learn and practice a lot of rescue together. And the leader will need to learn navigation and how to read weather etc.
Kayaking is a very skill intensive activity. Kids are probably faster at learning than the adult leaders. So it's the leaders that need to get themselves educated very quickly. You say you don't have the funds to hire a guide for the entire trip. But you'd better budget some funds for a qualified instructor for a fair amount of training. This isn't something you can read a few books (or a bunch of internet posting) and know how to do.
I hate to say this. But knowing how unforgiving June water is, I doubt I would let my own kid go with leaders who has only 1 season of experience. So, unless you can round up at least one leader who's an experienced kayaker, you may want to re-think this whole thing.
You’re right…
…I was confusing the two. I’ve seen plenty of tide rips, as they occur at virtually every river mouth and harbor inlet, as well as various other places.
Legal Places to Camp
– Last Updated: Sep-23-09 2:09 PM EST –
For most of this inland water route, prior to the Bay, you would have to travel a maximum of about 10 miles between good camping spots. I have paddled most of this route. Take a look at the Web based Sacramento River Atlas, the best source to find areas where you can legally camp: http://www.sacramentoriver.org/sac_river_atlas.php
For the Bay section, look at the San Francisco Bay Water Trail. I suggest that you paddle with them on their October 2-11th "7th Annual Sojourn on San Francisco Bay A benefit for Bay Access, dedicated to building a Water Trail in San Francisco Bay Celebrate Shoreline Parks". It will familiarize yourself with the Bay section of a potential trip. Thei trip details are as follows: 7th Annual Sojourn on San Francisco Bay A benefit for Bay Access, dedicated to building a Water Trail in San Francisco Bay Celebrate Shoreline Parks
The 2009 Bay Access Sojourn is designed to showcase the San Francisco Bay Water Trail through a series of events that allow us to experience special areas of the Bay. This years Sojourn takes us to some of the newer shoreline access locations and also to some of our old favorites. We will visit 16 Water Trail sites and overnight at six of them.
Goals
1. Introduce boaters to Bay Access and the San Francisco Bay Water Trail.
2. Bring human-powered boaters together to explore and enjoy sites on the San Francisco Bay Area Water Trail.
3. Discover new places to go and enjoy some places to overnight that are not normally accessible to kayakers.
4. Introduce parks and other shoreline facilities to the idea of hosting kayakers overnight.
5. Raise funds for Bay Access.
Events
October 2-8 North Bay Exploration
Friday, October 2nddepart from Shorebird Park in the Berkeley Marina late afternoon and ride the ebb to Angel Island (8 miles). Camp at Kayak Camp.
Saturday, October 3rd Explore Angel Island. Circumnavigate by land or by water (5 miles), visit the newly restored Immigration Station, hike to the top of Mt. Livermore. We ll spend another night at Kayak Camp. We may paddle over to Sam s Cafi in Tiburon for lunch or dinner.
Sunday October 4th Paddle north to McNears Beach, a Marin County Park (10 miles). We have special permission to camp at this palm-lined beach and park. We will hike along the beach to China Camp to check out the Chinese shrimp camp and learn of its history. McNears is the perfect spot to view the full harvest moon rising (and they have showers).
Monday, October 5th We leave McNears Beach and paddle across the Bay to Point Pinole Regional Park (5 miles) where we have special permission to camp. Point Pinole is a large, beautiful park with an interesting history. The sun setting behind Mt Tam will be a highlight.
Tuesday, October 6th Staying close to the shore we will go south to view the shoreline of Point Pinole and the adjacent wetland. Bring binoculars for bird watching as we pass close, but not too close, to the habitat of many of the Bays water fowl. Our destination is the historic Point San Pablo Yacht Harbor (5 miles) where we will be guests of the local residents and spend the night at the Fishermens Club (and they have showers).
Wednesday, October 7th We head south again to the Richmond Harbor where, by special arrangement we will spend the night on the World War II Victory Ship, the Red Oak Victory (7 miles). This floating museum is part of the Rosie the Riveter National Historic Monument and also boasts drop dead gorgeous views of the Bay and the City.
Thursday, October 8th Return to Shorebird Park at the Berkeley Marina (5 miles).
Registration is $30/person/day, or $130 for the whole shebang, and includes camp fees, ACA insurance and membership in Bay Access.
Open Bay skills are required and participants must supply their own appropriate equipment.
Contact Bo Barnes (415-334-4077 or bobo3@astound.net> for further information and to register.
October 10/11 Kirby Cove
This weekend marks the height of the Fleet Week Celebration. Kirby Cove is a great place to watch the parade of ships entering the Bay, the Blue Angels, and the fireworks display. To eliminate the need for cooking, dinner and breakfast will be provided. Each participant will provide lunches for both Saturday and Sunday. Open Bay skills are required.
The fee for this weekend event is $65 Your registration fee will cover an annual membership in Bay Access, the camping fee, ACA insurance, dinner and breakfast.
Kayakers will depart from Dunphy Park in Sausalito. Meet at 9:30AM on 10/10.
Contact Casey Walker for further information and to register for this event at walker@walkerlawfirm.com> or 415-337-7864.
-------------------------------------------------
Bay Access:
bayaccess.org
11 Margaret Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94112
USA}
Dick Ryon
Your final destination would be the Palo Alto launch ramp which is a few miles from Mountain View.
Ruby and Horsethief Canyons
of Colorado too.
What Could Go Wrong?
abc says: "Boat wakes are the minimum condition you must be able to handle comfortably for any kind of extended trip. You can easily find yourself encountering wind wave as big as the wake of a jet ski on a big river. So, if you’re not ready for a bit of “action” from the jet skis, you really don’t belong to a multi-day trip on even the inland rivers! (now that we’ve discarded the coastal trip idea). "
I see. You think I’m worried about boat wakes. Aren’t wakes the fun part? Do you really imagine that I think boat wakes are comparable to ocean waves or even some decent chop?! Just to be clear, I do not think that boat wakes are a major problem.
I occasionally drive across the Sacramento River. In the small part of the river that I can see from the bridge, I often see speed boats and water skiers blasting down the river in what looks like a relatively narrow channel. Let’s see, paddling down a narrow channel with a group of teen-aged boys while speedboats, water skiers, & jet skis charge through the area. What could possibly go wrong in that situation?
Well how about this:
http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_030609WAB-kayak-hit-and-run-folo-TP.c26b608.html A 15-year old kayaker was run over by a power boater earlier this year. Some reports say the power boater had to pay a $334 fine. Other reports say he wasn’t charged. The 15-year old had been in the hospital for 6 months at the time of that article. He can’t walk or talk.
Or this from ever restrained 
Village Voice in 2001: http://www.villagevoice.com/2001-09-04/news/collision-course/.
“Drop in Enforcement Leaves Kayaks Vulnerable to Jet Skis”
and
“Little did Glass know that he’d witnessed the birth of a new extreme sport—kayak hunting.”
A boat towing a biscuit, which I assume is something like an inner tube, when the rider fell off. “As well as the driver, there were two observers on the boat, which was turning to pick up the person who had fallen off the biscuit. The people on the boat were ‘unaware of the collision’ until they saw a body in the water.” He died when being loaded onto the rescue helicopter.”
or also from NZ:
“Paddler in yellow kayak, waving bright yellow paddle 60m before collision not seen by Power Boat.” It appears that the paddler survived and there is no mention of injuries.
Here’s another one from the NZ accident reports. An 18 year old had just been told to return a rented jet ski because of his bad behavior. He headed for the dock at a high rate of speed. “Just before he hit, the older girl grabbed the little girl from the front of the kayak. She could see him coming. Then I saw her fly into the air.”
Th NZ accidents are from: http://www.kayaker.org.nz/files/kask_collision_incident_summary.pdf
There is a huge difference leading a group of people where the situation can go from fine to dire in 10 or 15 seconds instead versus going bad in 20 to 30 minutes.
Thanks for the great resource
That’s a great resource. Thanks for the pointer. It really raises the desirability of the Sacramento River option.
no doubt about it …
… for instance , I’ve spent way lots of hours , years and years of them on the bay , it’s tributary rivers openning to the bay , and some ocean coast time . Powered vessels run at high speeds through this stuff , where as a paddler is all but holding still in comparison .
This is the realm of power , weight and speed … it is the realm of larger waters that have crest to trough that can swallow boats from visibility or make it difficult to keep track of some of them .
A small vessel such as a paddle craft that is low is easily swallowed from sight intermitently on even a light choppy day .
See and be seen is the key for paddle craft (as well as other craft) !!
Where the chance of encountering an oncoming power vessel in even minor wave heights that could make you all to easily not seen … I recomend not to paddle there .
We’ve been running around in a 21’ CC power boat lately (nephews) , and it’s surprising how some other boaters have no problem insisting that you do all possible to make certain you have a high speed collision with them … a paddle craft would just have to wait and see if the powered vessel is yeilding way or not , which would be an intense wait I’m certain !!
Such is life (paddling life anyway)
“I see. You think I’m worried about boat wakes.”
Yes, I was thinking of that. I’m glad it’s NOT the case.
But as the other poster pointed out, that’s pretty much what you have to worry about whenever paddling in water that has any power boats around. It could be river, lake or ocean. Plus, you might also have to contend with “working boats” such as tankers and cargo ships.
About the only water pleasure or power boaters don’t go to are white water.
high adventure
Hi I’m an eagle scout who has done a boundary waters trip ( 1 1/2 weeks) also have taken a 5 day trip with the scouts on the eleven point river in Missouri, which I was a leader on. Those memories are some of the best in my life. You should definitely do it, but think about a moderate river in canoes. Go through a good outfitter, most cut breaks for boy scouts, and they can do the work for you. Also, you might want to consider a white-water rafting trip that guarantees a good time. If you’ve done long hiking trips then you are ready for this, backpacking is much more demanding when dealing with scouts.