Hooray!
Once again I skipped here and there in this thread and found a post expousing what to me seems like "common sense". Thank you Sternsquirt.
I just DO NOT UNDERSTAND this pervasive mentality all around us that is based on the notion that every possible way in which people might screw-up has consequences so "global" in nature that we must pass laws to keep these screw-ups from happening in the first place.
if there are more people on the water
maybe we just need a bigger CG
if you make
the same arguement to politicians that you make here long enough, maybe, just maybe they might listen---after all maine is one of the handful of states that doesn't have a mandatory m/c helmet law---legislators get lobbied every year by the United Bikers of Maine to keep it from happening--if it works for them why not paddlers?
News flash…
everybody gets into paddling because it is easy and fun and cheap. There are no motors. Very little gear is needed. There are no classes to take. You don't have to be smart or athletic or on a team. For $500 you can buy a used ski and a paddle and see the coast.
When you say make them pay for rescues you are talking about making everyone of us pay for rescues. You are putting us all in the same light in the eyes of usa today.
Remember most rescues are not first timers in cheap boats. Granted their numbers are growing but you can't differentiate between experience levels when you are talking about charging for paddler rescues. You will be charging people like the ones coming here.
Every time someone brings up the subject of rescues for hire I cringe. I think if that happens many people will avoid rescues at the cost of lives. No fireman in their right mind would want that. Some liberal politicians might love the idea.
While we are talking about rescues, what would be the difference, in the eyes of a fireman, between a newbie paddler that bought a boat at dicks for $299 and get in trouble at the lake and homeowner that uses a kerosene heater in his basement next to the laundry basket and starts a raging fire? Should we charge the store that sold the heater? Charge the homeowner?
Bottom line is you can't charge people for rescues. It will make rescues harder and far more dangerous.
Almost every paddler gets into paddling with an inexpensive boat. We cant focus on the type of boat as being the problem. Can we? They are all paddlecraft. Pandoras box?
PS you seem to be upset that there are stores selling cheap boats. Other than that you lost me.
Look at how many times your peers used "elitist".
As in it is ok for me to paddle because I am good but those guys buying boats at Dicks are a pain in my ass.
Paddling is a super safe activity. Odds of needing a rescue are like a zillion to one. I still think you are imagining a threat. Like Kwickles from the hip reaction to the surf kayaker photo of the week. He saw a photo and reacted. You read an article in a rag and reacted. Why do you read USA today anyways? Surely there is a yachting monthly or caviar today or something better.
The Opposite…
the argument for more restrictions/ergulations is that we are ALL paying for rescues, just as we all do for fire and police. The difference is that while we all willing to pay for possibility of needing fire and police protection, not everyone has to be rescued on the water. In fact, most folks sit at home and go no where near the water. The call for more regulations is more likely to get a receptive ear from these non-paddling masses.
For those "good" or elite paddlers, the blame is placed on the so-call "recreational" (aren't we all?) paddlers, that because of their better training, knowledge and latest equipment to avoid rescues. Personally, I am not convinced that is the case, that the elite paddlers are significantly less likely to need a rescue than a recreational paddler. In fact, when the elite paddlers need a rescue, it's generally in conditions far more "dangerous" to the rescuers than would a recreational, likely flatwater paddler. Now the some of the elite paddlers are for imposing some sort of certification, lessons, etc. The "right" to paddle now is evolving into a "privelege", one where you have to have time and resources to pursue certification. That impacts the average joe with less economic means from getting on the water. It's plain elitist.
Yes, folks get lost paddling every year. But not as significant as to the accidents that claim lives in everyday life. To my way of thinking, the number of rescues of paddlers have have not been shown to have increased that dramatically. Furthermore, if someone were to cost out the rescues of the types of paddlers, I would hazard a guess the cost of trying to find and rescue an elite paddler missing in open seas is far more that for some inexperienced paddler near shore.
Regardless, if this about cost, then I say it's fairer to impose the cost of the rescues on the very folks who needed it, rather than imposing across the board restrictions and costs on everyone who wants to go out to paddle, even if it's on nice, warm flat pond.
The notion of imposing restrictions as solution may seem attractive to some of the elite paddlers, but it is in fact a slippery slope. When basic certification does not appreciably diminish the number of rescues, what then? More certification to paddle outside of harbor, in 2-3 waves, 10 knot winds, and another for 4' plus waves and 15 knot winds, and so on? Where does it stop and how does it enforced? It's just total BS.
sing
Survey says! novice paddlers
I’m active duty Coast Guard, and during my career I’ve seen more accidents and fatalities than I wish to remember. The common theme among self propelled boats can be categorized as follows:
Remember the Ball Player
who got drunk and ran his boat into the dock?
The coroner’s report listed the cause of death as “pier pressure”.
Media often has funny definition of …
… “experienced” when it comes to paddlers. Usually it means they’ve “experienced” some sort of paddling before the incident. Few reports know anything about paddlesports, and even fewer politicians.
We all can get into trouble on the water, but the truly experienced folks incidents aren’t numerous enough to be bumping up any rescue stats.
I blame river paddlers! 
rescues from the water
are pretty much local fire and police services. I dont think fire and police departments differentiate between what type of activity a person is doing when they get the call for help.
You cant say that water rescues for paddlers are in a different category of rescue and therefore require a seperate distinction of services. We all pay for these services already. They are free for a reason.
I don't get the "opposite" heading. Opposite from what?
You can't say that paddlers are different than powerboaters, marathon swimmers, mountain bikers, hikers, joggers, people out walking their dogs. They all choose to be outside and sometimes they are in places that would require difficult rescues. lately I see a strong tendency for people to want to breakdown the liabilities for individual activities. Fire departments dont care what you are doing. They have to try to help no matter who or what the cause of the call. Putting a tax or an education prerequisite on small boats will do nothing but create a very small worthless bureaucracy. It will merely be lip service to a bloated government. feel good politics with no benefit.
Ps I feel that seasoned paddlers with training and experience probably put themselves more at risk of needing rescues. they will be further from help. they push the weather envelope. Should we then increase the fees and training needed for this group? Maybe catagorized paddlers by the size of the waves? Strength of the wind? Distance from help? Once you target rec boats you target all boats. Right?
Some people will always see all paddlers as needlessly putting themselves at risk. Reality is this is a very safe sport with no need for mandated training. My mother in law paddles. My little nieces and nephews paddle. It is not a special privilege granted by the government like so many other things. This talk of intervention on this thread is crazy talk.
Don’t know about anyone else
But mandatory training sounds good to me.
I wish to God someone at Galyans had had the foresight to point me in the direction of someone back when my susan bought me the perception america rec. boat.
I lucked out, spent several seasons on calm waters like the erie canal, buffalo creek, and the like.
Developed paddling skills that damn near permenantly screwed up the shoulder,
Developed wrong or non existing safety and rescue skills.
Fortunately, I got to meet folks who did have the right skills and were willing to teach/reteach me the right way.
I’ve a sneaky suspecion a good many of these rescues are folks who bought the kayak and immediately took it in waters where skills were mandatory.
If we-as consumers-are too stupid (me included)to realize we need to develope certain skills then maby passing a skills class BEFORE you can purchase a boat is a good idea!
exactly.
would a training class get people to wear a pfd? Not if it is warm out. Will it get people to listen to a weather report? Not if it is sunny out. Will it get people to dress for immersion? Not until they go swimming in the forty degree water.
With your ties to the cg, do you think rec boats need to be sold with a training class?
its not the training I have a problem
with—I’ve had all types of it, including training and testing to become a guide—its the mandatory part of it.
As someone already pointed out,…
…how is kayaking statistically any more dangerous than perhaps 5,000 other common activities? I believe “mandatory instruction” needs to be justified in some way, and that means facts. There are countless activities which “the numbers” say are much more dangerous than paddling, so surely there are a bunch of other things we should put Big Brother in charge of for our own good.
What do you suppose it would cost to “educate” every homeowner in this country on how to operate a lawn mower, or any number of garden-variety power tools, every time one of those items is purchased? You can’t possibly advocate mandatory instruction for paddlers without addressing this issue too, because clearly it is a lot more pressing of an issue.
How would YOU like to be the one to break the news to all of America’s farmers that they must cease what they are doing until they get proper “instruction” regarding how to operate farm machinery as dicatated by Big Brother? After all, farming is one of the most dangerous activities in all of America, and surely if we “need” this kind of mandated instruction for paddling, it follows that it must be at least a few thousand times MORE important to “educate” America’s farmers. Granted, the vast majority of serious farming-related injuries and deaths are caused by making really stupid decisions (such as “surely I can survive in an environment which is totally lacking in oxygen for the few minutes it will take me to get the silo-unloader fixed”), but that’s basically the issue we are talking about, right?
Actually. re Maine…
we have sent in something to legislators in Maine from time to time when they floated the idea of registering paddle craft to be on their waters. Obviously some self-interest there, but it goes to the general good as well. And there are a couple of national organizations that we've joined all or partly because they are doing the kind of things that protect paddling and safety on the water without undue regulation.
Thing is, we are residents of NY state which has, thus far, not floated anything as dumb for paddle craft as some of the stuff in other states. Vacationers only have so much sway in these debates - for the most part residents have to carry the water.
manditory training
Many states have manditory boaters training, I believe they only apply to power boats or vessels over a certain size. The Cosat Auxillary and Power Squadron presents these classes as well as the state DNR. I’ve sat in on these and of course with the time allowed they only scratch the surface with the basics.
What kind of basic paddling course is there for us types? The ACA has instruction does anyone have any ideas?