only because
I listed boats that would best suit the area I paddle. Yes, the boats you mentioned perform well in rough water but that is hardly the situation I would be using the boat in. The coastal gulf waters are extremely benign compared to Lake Superior, NW Pacific and the NE coasts where I have paddled before. Our basic concern down here is max 3’ waves and winds in the 30 mph range when a storm moves through. I don’t use a sit in kayak here in the summer it is too hot for my tastes so those summer squalls we get are not a factor.
That is why I asked if you knew of another comparable boat design to suggest based on already discussed needs/area. I am open to different opinions and not married to the QCC or Swift boats.
Something for everyone
– Last Updated: Apr-02-05 11:05 PM EST –
To categorize all QCCs as flat water boats verifies you haven't paddled them. It's completely unfounded opinions like that we who do paddle them object to. It's not your aesthetic opinion I have a problem with, it's the assumptions you draw about performance based on looks.
I agree on the too wide/deep on all QCCs but 600/700 - which are no bigger than other commercial sea kayaks, and no less suitable for textured water for touring. Maybe not the best play boat, but they'll get you through as much ugly water as you can handle. Both have quite a bit of rocker - it's just not obvious - and are great on edge.
BTW - I have a Pintail so I, unlike you, can compare directly on and off water. Foredeck is same height on both, rear is higher in 700, but the way I've repositioned my seat it's now more comfortable for me to roll than the Pintail, which jams into my back. Both have very similar primary and secondary stability. Tracking/turning differences should be obvious, but given the extra 2' of waterline the 700 turns quite easily. In other than flat water I find they Pintail wallows and wastes available energy. Waves spin it off line more easily too. Would be handy for toning the ride down and maneuvering in larger stuff inside the surf zone, or navigating rock gardens, but for anything else, I prefer the 700 in textured water.
Both are good kayaks with clear purpose driven designs. No one said their wasn't "purpose in the shape of other designs". Point was that the QCC look is not by accident - or about looks at all.
Your jab would be taken in good humor, IF you were speaking from a knowledgeable position as you do with other things.
Pintail perspectives
"In other than flat water I find they Pintail wallows and wastes available energy."
I find exactly the opposite to be true. The Pintail is a pig on flat water with a very distinct “wall” when you approach its theoretical hull speed. It’s habit of wandering around like a bird dog (unless you drop the skeg) gets annoying and tiring. It comes into its own when the water is rough and the rougher it is, the better it performs. My experience has been that keeping up with paddlers in faster boats is a bear on flat water, but when the going gets rough, the difference disappears.
I guess a lot also depends on the definition of “textured water”. There’s a big difference between 1’ swell and 3’ wind chop. In choppy conditions, there’s no boat I’d rather be in than a Pintail.
Well, now that we’re talking about…
…my favorite cult, Pintails, this thread has gotten interesting. 
3’ chop is about all I’ve ever known
I cut my paddling teeth on the lower Chesapeake. Small Craft Advisory on N, E, or SE winds meant 2-4’ steep chop at the mouth of my river, especially on ebb tide over the shoals. Swell never happens there. The 600 was pretty fun out there and performed just as well as the NF Legend that I borrowed and paddled from time to time. Actually, I prefer the 600 because it is lower volume and lighter than the Legend. If rough water is slowing your companions down so much that you can keep up with them in a pintail then they are deficient and not their craft. The only boats sitting on my deck that I wouldn’t put up against a Brit boat in rough water are my ICF sprint boats. Surfski or Q600, either will outrun a Pintail in any open watre condition. The only place I would prefer the Pintail is in a rock garden or some such place where manueverability is crucial. Boats like the Pintail feel like whitewater boats to me in the way they absolutely hit the wall speedwise but will turn on a dime. I can’t see where those handling characteristics would be desirable in open water.
There are pointy boats that I wouldn’t mind in open water and would actually prefer to my Q600. The Betsy Bay Recluse is one. It isn’t the pointy ends that I don’t like about boats like the pintail for open water, it is the fat middle and short short water line.
Well, this is enough pretty weather wasted. I’m off to the Atlantic to paddle the ski and do some bodyboarding once the tide fills in and the shorepound starts working.
Good looking bird
And exactly the touch this thread needs!
Sweet looking boat
Who sells it?
Nordkapp, Aquanaut, Legend, etc…
If you are talking about a Brit boat in open water, the better would be a Nordkapp,Aquanaut, Legend or Greenlander Pro. Take one of these into bumpy open water to compare to your Q500. Then you’re talking.
The Pintail was never intended as an open water tourer. It is intended for very rough water and agility.
Uh, comprehension problem?
I mentioned having paddled a Legend in my previous post and I made no mention of a Q500. The 500 and 600 are vastly different, the 500 is a barge.
I also acknowledged the Pintail’s use in tight places. It is like a whitewater boat to me in the way it handles. Previous poster seemed to be singing its praises as shining speed wise in sloppy water versus longer thinner boats. I mentioned the BB Recluse as a pointy ended boat that I would definitely prefer to a Q600. It’s not like I wrote off all pointy-ended boats whether greenland style or Brit. I want to try a Valley Quarajaq. I like hard chined shallow arch hulls for riding a following sea.
I’ve paddled a Legend a fair bit actually. I like it fine but like my Q600 just as much and wanted to make the point that the 600 handles chop fine. Some seem to want to write off all QCC’s as flatwater boats when that isn’t the case. 600 and 700 work fine in conditions and move quickly given the right powerplant. Sure there are things I’d have different from the Q600 if I were looking for a new boat. 12-18" more waterline length. A bit more rocker. Lower aft deck. and 1-2" narrower.
Excuuuuse me!
– Last Updated: Apr-04-05 5:12 PM EST –
Lighten up!
Sorry I got the model number of your Q boat wrong.
This is why I usually stay out of religous discussions in which I have no particular interest. Threads about John Winters' design boats are among such.
You did write "The only boats sitting on my deck that I wouldn't put up against a Brit boat in rough water..." I was simply noting those Brit boats that would be appropriate in such a comparison.
Maybe need to define "performance"
I think maybe Greyak is talking about paddling downwind (“wasting available energy”) and Brian is talking about paddling upwind, but I can’t tell for sure. What performance parameters are you each talking about? How much are you talking about speed (upwind, crosswind, downwind)and how much are you talking about ease of staying upright and ease of holding course?
pig on flat
No disagreement on the Pintail there. Definite wall. But the wallowing and dampening I referred to was not on flat (and not always a bad thing).
My point was I would indeed prefer my 700 on 3’ wind wave (on or off additional swell). Partly because I have MUCH more time in it of course, but mostly because it catches more waves more easily and so is more fun in that stuff. Babysits just as well with its stability, and doesn’t get tossed around as much. Requires a bit more attention to timing to bring it about, but worth it for the extra rides and quicker progress both up and downwind.
I directly compared in exactly the 3’ wind wave you mentioned. First the 700, then the Pintail. I had high hopes for the Pintail given its rep and expected it to be the more fun boat. I was surprised to find the 700 more fun at all angles, and markedly so on up and downwind runs.
Like I said - Pintail, with it’s spin out maneuverability, probably has an edge in large dumpers and rock gardens (which I really don’t have) - but in open water where tight turns aren’t the priority?
Pintail’s qualities are well known - Q600/700’s obviously not. To be expected with newer designs I suppose.