Sorry, but …
… I don’t think I’ve “intentionally misinterpreted” your words so much has you have unintentionally misinterpreted my tone, which was intended to be lighthearted. I didn’t have any particular of your words in mind, nor did I mention you.
I did use the word “impossible”, but I thought it would be clear that that was simple hyperbole on my part, not someone else’s actual word about the Osprey. The rhetorical point I clearly failed to make is that the Osprey is no different from any canoe in these performance effects and probably handles them better than most of the solos.
My serious point about trim is in my third to last paragraph.
If I’m responding in a thread, that means it interests me and I enjoy it. That includes the OP and everyone else.
I always try to have a serious or substantive point, but I confess that, because writing is a hobby, I sometimes play games with tone, word plays and rhetorical devices. Sometimes they backfire.
Back to the topic…
ok so I got the Osprey out tonight and experimented. I found the side slip method very intriguing. I had recalled that when I side slipped with the boat that it required a different boat placement. Now it kind of made sense.
I only had time to experiment for a while as I had spent most of the night in my kayak.
I found that the boat side slipped most neutrally when the seat was set at or just a little ahead of center. This is consistent with what the Swift rep said, but different from other boats which usually have the seat set a few inches aft of center.
In my short time experimenting with the side slip tonight I just basically confirmed why I asked this question in the fist place: the Osprey is a very different boat.
I believe that it is. I have owned several different solo boats: a Mad River guide, wildfire, magic, mohawk oddysey, and a merlin. Of all the boats I have owned this one is much different in its handling. It seems that most of the other boats I have had tend to have the stern skid out more readily than with the Osprey.
The Osprey turns very easily in my opinion. I think it is just a great boat, but its maneuverbility really seems to be more in the bow perhaps than other boats I have paddled which seem to maneuver more by the stern skidding out.
the only other boat I have paddled that felt somewhat like this was a friend’s Wenonah Renezvous which seeme to be somewhat similar…although it could have been a function of seat positon since it too has a sliding seat.
I will keep experimenting with the Osprey, but I have to say that it may take a while. I find it to be a very different boat and it handles so well it is hard to tell when it is handling “better” Additionally it does seem to be a very trim sensitive boat. The handling doesn’t necessarily suffer with varying trim, but it certainly changes noticeably.
Matt
This is where you come into play
"but its maneuverbility really seems to be more in the bow perhaps than other boats I have paddled which seem to maneuver more by the stern skidding out. "
True with boat flat. Now try kneeling with your hips locked so that the only angle in your body is your knees.
That pitches the bow forward and frees the stern, which makes the boat more maneuverable than when it was flat. The stern will skid. The Osprey has been used successfully in FreeStyle.
Freestyle in an Osprey
Attempting to master the various maneuvers might be the best way to get a handle on her.
It sure helped me.
That said the sticky stern makes the Osprey a less than perfect Freestyle boat.
there are questions…and then…
Remember those classmates that continuously asked questions during class about certain aspects towards math problems…that would’ve been solved/learned if they would’ve done their homework(ie go out and paddle) the previous night…
…Not posting any criticism…Just sayin’…
Well that is criticism…
guess I am sorry I asked the question.
Maybe I have experimented with this boat a bit…and maybe…just maybe I have owned one before and experimented a lot with the seat position and never coudl quite put my finger on it…maybe…
Or maybe you’re right.
What’s worse than the guy you refer to above is someone who makes critical comments without having all the information and bases their criticism on assupmtions that are incorrect.
If you read my post there is a reason why I ask this question. I have experimented a bit with this boat and a lot with the Osprey that I owned before and sold. I find the Osprey to be a different boat than most I have paddled. I’m not gonna repeat what I said above.
I paddle a lot and experiment a lot and have done so with this boat.
The whole purpose of a forum is the exchange of information. Generally that happens by people asking questions and others responding. The poster gets info and the other folks who look at the post can gain from the exchange as well.
Then you have the peopple who just have the need to respond and basically tell you it’s a stupid question, or the poster is a lousy paddler, or doesn’t know what they are talking about, etc. Such comments add nothing to the forum really. But I guess it makes them feel better.
I don’t quite understand it.
Maybe I will just stop asking questions. Heaven forbid that someone actually use an online forum for asking questions…
Boat Flat…
I know how to heel a boat and am not turning the boat flat. The Osprey still seems to me to turn more from the bow then stern in a way.
I can get the stern on my Magic to skid out with the boat fully loaded. You can’t do that without heeling it…but I still feel that the Magic turns more from the stern than the Osprey, despite the Osprey being highly maneuverably.
I can get the Osprey to turn 180 degrees pretty easily with a single bow rudder / draw / post, but it still feels to me like the bow skids more so than the stern skidding. Maybe that doesn’t make sense but that is the way it feels.
Also is in line with what the guy at Swift said.
Then again maybe that means that I need to slide the seat farther forward of center to balance out the bow and the stern.
Again though, that is not typical of most boats whose “text book” solution is to have the seat 3 or 4 inches aft of center vice FORWARD of center. Once again shows that the Osprey may be a little different from many canoes in this regard which is why I asked my question in the first place.
Matt
I think you sometimes expect everone
... to accept all of your premises. Some here aren't willing to do that, especially those who consistently offer advice to those seeking it. I'm not among them.
But, for instance, when you were selling your first Osprey after a very brief ownership, many here questioned that wisdom, given your paddling goals. You assured all doubters that when you've paddled as many hulls as you have, it doesn't take long at all to size up a hull and know what it is capable of.
This place is a two way street. If you ask questions, you're going to get your premises questioned in return sometimes. I don't find it to be a bad thing. I've benefited from it, even though it wasn't always what I wanted to hear.
Of course, just because someone is questioning this or that about your posts, goals or technique doesn't make them right either. But that's what makes it interesting. We can all try to wrap our minds around the inquiry, however imperfect they may be. And sometimes, maybe ask a question or offer a suggestion that isn't directly responsive to the original post. But, that's what make this human interaction and not like asking a computer or calculator what the answer is.
Hope to see you on the water sometime.
well…
I did sell the Osprey and it made sense at the time. I had chosen to only have two boats…a Magic and a YS Solo royalex. I kept the YS solo (despite not liking it as much) but only because I wanted a plastic boat for whitewater. I now have a MR Guide which fills that niche. Etc.
As to getting up tight when people disagree with my premises…
That is not the case at all.
I get up tight when people make accusations or lack courtesy.
Such as in this post. I ask a question and get one guy telling me that I don’t paddle enough. Another basically telling me that I am asking a question without doing my homework, another telling me that my description of the boats handling is a function of not knowing how to heel the boat, etc, etc. And a another who implies that a question about boat tracking is invalid because tracking is completely a function of the paddler and therefore I would infer that the implication is that I just need to learn how to paddle.
None of this is a function of people not agreeing with the premise of my post…is it?
No…it’s basically a bunch of criticism based on a myriad of false assumptions.
Human interaction is something I embrace; however, I don’t understand the need people have to criticize when on the internet when they probably don’t do so in person during their every day lives, and when it is compeltely unwarranted.
I asked a question. It was a reasonable question.
Criticizing a person for their question or bringing into question the credibility of the person asking the question is really not something that adds value to the conversation.
I generally keep my mouth shut and move on if I think a question is dumb. My telling the poster that really doesn’t add anything and is something I woudl not do if we were all in a room together in person.
I am likely going to post less here.
I am a very courteous individual and fairly thick skinned as an Army Ranger; however, I am a firm believer in courteous and professional exchanges and am really fed up with being criticized or having my credibility questioned for asking questions on a site that is designed for just that.
Matt
On the internet
it is easy to make a backhanded comment that one would not make face to face. And sometimes a written comment that is made somewhat tongue-in-cheek is taken at face value and causes offence.
I’ve had to bite my tongue on these forums quite a few times, and sometimes I have failed to do so to my regret.
I think your question generated some interesting discussion and I learned some things about the Osprey I hadn’t fully appreciated.
Osprey can be intriguing
(too) lightly loaded, a change of trim changes the underwater profile
remarkably because of its special asymmetrical shape – I assume…
which causes the quite different performance/behavior.
With the right load, the behavior is more like ‘expected’.
Complicating factor too, is the difference of changing the trim
with a sliding seat or gear.
Changing the trim with a sliding seat changes the wind profile
more significantly, because of the paddlers ‘profile’ change
in the canoe, where changing the trim with gear does not change
the wind profile that significant.