SGS, can you clarify your #2 misery
Are you saying you don’t like (bow) on-side axle turns?
Are you further suggesting that the team should switch paddling sides and then do a cross-bow axle turn, so that both paddlers are reaching over the low side?
If I’m reading you correctly, you haven’t addressed the simple post turn as an option.
Maybe I’m confused.
Unclear on benefit of cross wedge
85D, you don’t say whether you heel, or which way, on the cross wedge.
More fundamentally, especially for the less experienced reader, what benefit is there to a cross wedge by the bow versus a simple bow draw when going around a sharp on-side corner? It seems to me that the cross wedge is inherently a more unstable balance posture, whereas the bow draw has a strong bracing effect. Moreover, the cross wedge is a static placement with no propulsive power, whereas the bow draw has dynamic pulling propulsive power.
When heeled to the inside of a turn…
– Last Updated: Feb-23-15 6:39 PM EST –
OK - if you're going to heel a canoe to the inside of the turn... what actually makes sense?
My daughter, at the age of 6, worked out that a cross-draw is biomechanically WAY better than an onside draw - and without prompting, started switching to ensure every inside-heeled turn was on her off-side.
Think about it / try it: we need serious strength to hold an onside draw in a loaded tandem, especially in a challenging eddy turn!
Now a question for ANY stern paddler. Which is the ONLY sensible side to be paddling on when heeled to the inside of a turn?
From the inside of such a turn a stern paddler can:
* drive the boat forward very efficiently;
* pry very efficiently;
* draw to straighten the boat very efficiently;
* brace very efficiently.
From the outside of such a turn... well, we're basically a passenger: we're reaching over the high side of the boat to even get close to the water - and there's no way on earth we can do anything effectively OR efficiently!
Bow Paddler’s Onside…
– Last Updated: Feb-23-15 7:15 PM EST –
If we want to turn to the bow paddler's onside... the stern paddler should insist on heeling to the outside of the turn.
Advantage I - heel alone may be sufficient to initiate turn... and manoeuvre works with the way the hull naturally wants to turn;
Advantage II - stern paddler isn't redundant - and is actually able to contribute from a biomechanically sound position;
Advantage III - stern paddler is likely to be confident heeling further with scope for his/her onside brace;
In this situation, the bow paddler has got assorted options including...
1. An onside draw - reaching over the high rail;
2. A cross-wedge - working over the low-rail;
Either can work pretty well with minimal heel.
The first is satisfyingly physical and leaves us optimally positioned to use active draws to accentuate spin.
The second is more elegant and will force the hull around even in a laden boat with strong winds resisting the turn.
With all that said, most of the time we're still better of switching before the manoeuvre and just heeling the other way - as the stern paddler's almost always better off operating on the inside of the turn.
Still lives here NM
Have you left out some physics?
– Last Updated: Feb-23-15 9:59 PM EST –
Okay, SGS, as I now understand it, you think the most efficient way to go around a bend is with a cross-bow axle, like Lou and Carol Glaros:
http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pm68LfQg7vg/VOjmOibqLhI/AAAAAAAACuc/aFAEB5xZAhI/s640/EFS%2520300%2520%2520X%2520Axle.jpg
And paddlers should switch paddling sides so that every turn will be a cross-bow axle turn. (I'm a big proponent of ambidextrous paddling, but I've never seen anyone switch in "freestyle" exhibitions.)
But in your list of bio-mechanical advantages for the stern paddle to be on the inside of the turn, you sort of skipped over something: stalling out vs. forward propulsion power.
Note what Lou Glaros is doing in the stern. He's reverse sweeping or sort of prying to enhance the turn. But that kills forward momentum. He'll have to wait until he's almost around the corner before he can recover into strong forward strokes. He can't help "power through" the turn, DURING the turn, because his back-sweeping or side-prying strokes have no forward vector and may even have a reverse vector.
If the tandem team is doing an on-side axle, like Charlie and Deb:
http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6rNpgyPYpnM/VOgHh0l4W_I/AAAAAAAACr8/K6tiTXhxg0M/s640/DW-TANDEM.JPG
Charlie will have to be reaching over the high side, sure, which may be marginally clumsy but not really too hard (with a long enough paddle) in the narrow hull region of a stern seat. More importantly, Charlie will be using forward sweep strokes, which by definition have an intrinsic forward vector component, unlike the back-sweeping or side-prying Lou Glaros. Charlie will be able to power the boat around the corner faster and with more directional control than Lou can. Plus, on-side Deb can easily get forward power by slicing her static Duffek into a forward/draw stroke. Yes? No?
Which is more important, more "efficient": maximal turning moment with a weak forward vector, or a lesser but sufficient turning moment with more forward speed and power?
I'd love to hear racers tell us how they make turns in serpentine sloughs. Racers are the best source of information when it come to paddling efficiency.
Race turns
I explained some of what I do in small twisty streams like Brown’s Tract way up in post #2 of this thread. I’ve paddled the Adirondack 90-miler 18 times, as well as numerous other annual races, including the General Clinton 70-miler, and twice each on the Yukon 1000 miler and the Yukon River Quest 440 miler. Most of my races have been in a voyageur canoe, a few 90-milers in a C-4, a few solo, and only a couple in the stern of a C-2 canoe. In all the voyageur C-6/7 and C-4 races I am bow paddler.
As I mentioned in post #2 above, when approaching turns in Browns or similar twisty water, it is very important to get myself set up early before the actual turn to be toward the outside, so that I can start rotation of the boat before I even enter the turn (my approach angle).
In the bow I am always paddling onside the turn. If my stern paddler hasn’t already hut to put me there, I go onside when I feel I need to switch and the stern follows my lead (and everyone else if in a C-4 or C-6/7 voyageur). Generally one does not heel a voyageur canoe (much), and may or may not heel a C-4, depending on the experience of the crew.
As I get to the turn itself, I am drawing strongly at a 45 degree angle, reaching out and pulling toward my knee, making power judgements to turn sharp, but not so overly sharp to get into the shallow muck or thick weeds often found on the inside of the turn. Depending on the canoe, I am probably sitting on the very front edge of the seat or down on one knee. This puts me as far forward as possible for better turning leverage. Strong draws will go into a flat post or axle, again depending on the canoe and crew if we heel one way or the other. I think generally I am leaning out rather aggressively so that with my weight any heel is toward my onside.
When I paddled a 32 foot voyageur, I learned to carry along a long shaft sturdy straight blade wood paddle, just for use Brown’s Tract. In that canoe I could reach forward far enough to do a cross bow jam, with the blade crossing at an angle in front of the bow as a rudder, water pressure holding the blade against the front of the bow stem. That maneuver was a last resort to really spin the boat around the tightest turns, although it drains forward speed rapidly. Due to the extreme pressure it puts on the blade when at speed, I do not dare use an expensive carbon bent shaft to attempt this.
What is my stern paddler doing during my activity in the bow? Generally i don’t exactly know, but they are surely either sweeping or drawing, or prying, or powering in concert with my action.
I very much like racing in Brown’s. I pass a lot of boats in Brown’s, very rarely do I get passed by other boats. Passing other boats is an entire technique to get into the right position at the precise right time with only inches of spacing to spare without making contact or upsetting either boat. Part bluff, part power, correct approach angle. At the end of the 2.5 mile run on Brown’s I am usually quite spent physically.
The other kind of turn that takes some thought is a buoy turn, rapidly turning sharply at speed around a floating buoy from 90 to as much as 180 degrees. You have a choice whether to approach the buoy while maintaining full speed and therefore making a large arc around it, or slowing and making a smaller arc closer to it. I do like to maintain as much speed as possible, but the bow and stern paddlers have to do the mental calculation of how wide to make the turn such that the apex of the turn is barely the width of the canoe beyond the buoy. The stern paddler determines how wide to set up and I will initiate the turn from the bow when I feel it is just right. I begin with forward draws toward my knee, and accelerate the angular momentum with a post as far forward and out as I can reach. If I have done it right, we will kiss the outside of the buoy at speed and I will need to quickly lift my paddle over the buoy just as we have rotated the boat through the half angle of the turn.
"always paddling onside the turn"
Why?
Is it because you disagree with the argument that a cross-bow draw is biomechanically stronger than an on-side bow draw? Or because an on-side draw gives you a better combination of turning and forward vector forces? Or perhaps, in such a big canoe, your bent shaft is really too short to get good cross-bow draw purchase.
Here you are with your long straight paddle doing either a cross-forward stroke or perhaps setting up or recovering from a cross-bow jam (wedge):
http://susquehanna-wcha.net/trips/canoe-trip01.jpg
Comparison to eddy turn is semi-flawed
I agree that a cross-bow draw can effect a more powerful eddy turn than an on-side bow draw. But the comparison of a whitewater eddy turn to driving a tandem canoe around a river bend is only partially congruent.
In an eddy turn you WANT to STOP the fast moving canoe dead in the eddy. The cross-bow draw stops faster than an on-side draw because you can horse more back muscles into the pull on the the Duffek. Moreover, the back sweep done by the stern also helps stop the canoe’s momentum.
In contrast, when going around a bend you certainly don’t want to stop and, if you are racing or want to have speed to avoid something evil around the bend, you may not want to slow down while going around the turn.
Finally when going around a river bend, you may want to be in the faster water slightly left of river center. You don’t usually need your sharpest turning weapon to arc around into that current position.
It depends on the current speed and water obstacle situation. If the current is really slow and there are no dangers, then one can obviously use any turn maneuver at all, just for fun or variety or aesthetic pleasure. But if the current is fast or there are hard or hydraulic obstacles, you may want to choose the turn maneuver that maximizes speed or minimizes speed, depending on what’s ahead – as 85D has already said.
Glenn, you now have me confused
If the bow paddler does a cross axle, and I’m paddling in the fifth seat back, right side, I do what?
Just kidding
Off-side placements / onside driving…
Whilst the biomechanics of the cross-draw are excellent… we can still be extremely delicate in opening the face. As a rule, this should only ever be as little as is absolutely necessary… as anything more would be inefficient!
Now if the stern paddler is any good, he/she ought to be able to drive the canoe through the turn BETTER from the inside of the turn than from the outside.
Bear in mind that in a heeled canoe, the centreline of the boat goes pretty much through the lower rail at the stern paddling station. Short, sharp strokes, finishing ahead of the hip basically provide forward propulsion with minimal misdirection - and doing this over the low-rail is WAY better than flailing over the high-side!
Beyond all of that, a GOOD, active power-pry is pretty damn efficient at kicking the stern sideways… and more importantly, once we’ve turned enough… paddling on the inside of the turn allows us to drag our strokes longer / wider (or to resort to a sweep / stern draw) to get the boat back on track.
I’m not saying that’s the only way… but as my other post notes, if I want to paddle on the outside of a turn whilst paddling from the stern in a tandem… the boat gets heeled that way - with my bow partner choosing a post / cross wedge.
I think you just sit there…
and hope the boat doesn’t crash on the rocks. Those guys need longer paddles.
Offside or onside
– Last Updated: Feb-24-15 7:59 AM EST –
Glenn, in the Francis Ann Hopkins voyageur painting you reference, entitled "shooting the rapids" (a large print hangs in my living room), the canoe is not making a sharp curving turn. The "avant" is using a cross bow to aim where the "gouvernail" in the stern cannot see. I do the same when in similar conditions, onside or offside bow ruddering left or right as needed for fine control.
I do not at all disagree that a cross bow draw is biomechanically stronger. Most times I do onside draws in sharp turns just as I described - partly because the entry to a turn at approach angle is indeed always initiated with an onside draw along with just enough power strokes. Partly because I want to keep the boat weighted or heeled steady in whatever configuration it is in and not make it difficult for the paddlers behind me, who in a voyager are in side-to-side sliding seats. My head definitely goes outside the rails when carving a turn, from whatever side.
But you know what.... in a race I paddle the stroke(s) that work at the moment without much conscious thought to what named stroke that is at the time. Offside draws around sharp turns are in the arsenal, when I feel the need. I am not fixed on one firm procedure in every situation. The stern does his own strokes as needed, but we work in close concert at major decision points. I liken it to riding a bicycle downhill on a rough curvy road - you don't much think about the exact mechanics needed to avoid obstacles, you just do what is needed on autopilot. There isn't time for thought, only action. Quick punch onside and offside cross bow strokes and draws happen often whenever needed.
There are very many youtube videos showing how pleasant and easy it is to do freestyle turns. Good stuff, but the speed is always so slow, often ending with little forward velocity carry through. The dynamics change at high speed. I'd like to see some of those high speed turns demonstrated with freestyle stroke techniques.
Same here
" I very much like racing in Brown’s. I pass a lot of boats in Brown’s, very rarely do I get passed by other boats. Passing other boats is an entire technique to get into the right position at the precise right time with only inches of spacing to spare without making contact or upsetting either boat. Part bluff, part power, correct approach angle. At the end of the 2.5 mile run on Brown’s I am usually quite spent physically."
X’s 2
We’ll usually pass four or five C-2’s and also get passed by a c-4 or two
It’s the animals in the C-4’s that won’t wait their turn and will run us C-2’s over or into the bushes that tick me off!
Jack L
Passing technique
– Last Updated: Feb-24-15 1:04 PM EST –
Jack, as you no doubt have observed, the C4 class has literally exploded in numbers here in the east over the past few years. But you can't just put a couple of tandem crews together in a C4 and have them know what they are doing without a lot of training in the C4 together. As a result there is some really bad paddling evident, especially in Brown's. When I pass another boat, they usually make the mistake of powering up at the wrong time and not thinking about entry angle to negotiate the next turn, partly because of a bluff technique, they end up unable to negotiate that next turn and put themselves in the bushes while I am slowing just enough to cross over scant inches BEHIND their stern and angling to the next following turn far inside them as they plow into the outside bank.
Negotiating Brown's in a race is like a dance. Left turn followed by a short (often very short) straight segment, then a right turn. Repeat a hundred times. All smoothly done with everyone in the crew in complete sync and understanding exactly on which stroke what needs to be done. The canoe glides from one turn to the next, always with a forward line to mentally calculate and a hut at just the right time.
Where there are less frequent and less complex turns, and more forward speed to deal with, such as on the Raquette River below Long Lake, yeah, I can see cross bow axles/posts as an occasional turn of choice. I'm sure I do them, probably not for large hard fast turns. It just depends.
Meanwhile C4 canoes are virtually unknown in the west, at least in the Yukon. There still is no race class for them, though they would be perfectly suited for the 440 mile YRQ.
Jack, HOW do you make the turns?
I’m interested in learning how racers prefer to make twisty turns. We have arguments in favor of:
– Axle with on-side bow draw (the Yknpdlr preference, I think)
– Axle with off-side bow cross-draw, and switch paddling sides to set this up for each turn (the Snowgoose preference)
– Post with on-side bow draw (often said to provide the sharpest, crispest turn)
– Post with off-side bow cross-draw (possible)
– Bow jams (wedges), on-side or off-side
Surely tandem racers have some sort of preference among these techniques in order to maximize speed and pass as many other boats as possible. I’m not looking for theory, but what racers ACTUALLY DO.
Power
– Last Updated: Feb-24-15 1:43 PM EST –
When the stern is on the same side as a Crossed Bow, he is usually J stroking, each J misdirecting force and slowing the boat. When he's on the opposite side of the Bow's Duffek he can drop the J and drive the hull with more power, applying a little Sweeping Component as needed. With Functional FreeStyle's modest heels I can't imagine any kneeling paddler having trouble reaching water over the slightly elevated rail.
Depends on the water and the turn
Axles are the most stable turn with the best brace but slow, fine for maneuvering in whitewater. Cross Axles are stable with good braces but usually end with the boat dead in the water, great for eddy turns but counterproductive in a race.
Posts are faster because the bow is carving into the turn and the Stern is sweeping the hull through the turn so more momentum is preserved. Cross Posts slow a little, the bow still carving but stern J’s slowing the boat. Braces are sketchy, slicing to a Righting Pry needs practice in warm water.
Wedges are kinda cool, but they are twitchy to apply, destroy cadence and forward power and the bow’s brace is a sweep to low brace, which always takes too long. Hence no Wedges described above.
Good summary. Post. Videos.
I respect yknpdlr’s vast experience, but he essentially admits that paddling a war canoe is somewhat different from a C2 and that heels (axle vs. post) are perhaps too subtle to be determinative.
I like Charlie’s summary, and it seems to me that the on-side post turn sounds the most efficient for a racer, which I’m not. Of course, racing turns are only a small subset of what Marc and Charlie are calling functional freestyle.
Still, I always seek out what racers do. So I looked for some videos of C2 marathon racers.
I’ve yet to find one of top pro racers going around sharp corners, but I have found videos of them them going around more gradual bends in the Clinton. They heel slightly to the outside of the turn, in a post-like heel, but nobody plants a Duffek or hanging draw. BOTH paddlers paddle on the outside to power around the bend at top speed. They obviously don’t want any sort of Duffek, brace or other static stroke dragging through the water and slowing velocity.
I have found one video showing tandem racers on the Ausable going around a buoy positioned at a sharp river bend, which requires some sort of Duffek or static paddle plant. The first boat negotiates it very nicely with an on-side post turn.
The rest of the boats . . . well . . . it’s an “eclectic” mix of modest paddlers with an “eclectic” mix of techniques . . . and you can be the judge. I think you can see cross-bow Duffeks killing velocity on the second and third boats, for example, but there’s so much confused technique on most of the boats it’s hard to sort out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeuFdz0XJL8
Cool Video
Thanks Glenn. Our goal is to look like the first boat, not the others.