Practicing the capsized kayak recovery
You ask about learning this technique. Any paddler should first have learned to “wet-exit” from the capsized kayak, and then to wait gradually longer periods upside down to gain confidence holding the breath,during training periods. When the paddler is able to wait, say, 15 seconds, then they can be used in the recovery method. If it doesn’t immediately succeed, knock on the hull a few times by pre-arranged signal to tell the paddler to wet exit. This is a perfectly standard part of kayak training in my neck of the woods. (UK and BCU)
Nick.
Indeed
If I haven’t already said it, I wholeheartedly agree with the whole “wet exit” thing, and paddlers being comfortable getting in and out of their kayak upside down and right side up before moving on to anything resembling rolling. In fact, any time I’ve introduced someone to the sport I’ve typically had them in the water and upside down the same day as they get in the boat - or shortly thereafter. Frankly, I’m not interested in paddling with anyone that can’t wet exit and get back into their boat from deep water. Same goes for rescues, both as a swimmer and rescuer.
To clarify my concern, it’s more one of feeling responsible for the student’s well being and that they would be relying on my to turn them back right side up if they failed a roll.
Now, however, I’m beginning to change that mindset. I’m thinking that having a few simple pre-arranged signals (as you’ve suggested) and following actions is good, but that the student should know that I’m only there to assist. It is ultimately their responsibility to make sure if they are panicking or running out of air they need to take the initiative and get out of their boat.
Ideally, I’d like to avoid having the student take too many swims while trying to teach this though, as it will take away from valuable time that could be better spent helping them through the motions. Hence the reason why I’m so interested in being able to very effectively and effortlessly roll someone back up while standing next to their boat.
The Mask
Just don’t let the student get too used to that mask. That mask isn’t going to be there when it’s time to roll the boat up for real. This happened to a buddy of mine. He had ONE roll and it required a swimming pool and a mask. He would never ween himself off those things. Maybe some people can; he didn’t.
I used a mask extensively
for rolling practice because the area of the Chesapeake Bay I often paddle in does not have the cleanest water. I found that rolling in the water lent to the development of sinus infections . I didn’t find it at all difficult to roll without the mask. YMMV
That got my attention:
“right the boat by pushing down with the lower hip…”
I’ve not seen it described that way before. My reference book refers to right and left. In my limited hip snap practice this summer, I never consciously thought of which hip to weight and might have done the opposite.
Tried it today, using a dock for support. Worked nicely. Thanks!
The only thing that went wrong was that I had been paddling without my skirt fully attached to the back of my cockpit, to see how much it freed up hip rotation. Forgot to reattach it. When I felt my lower body getting cold and checked, saw I was sitting in water.
HA
I had to laugh because I never did such a thing in my life. Nope. Never. Didn’t happen. That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.
Rick
People can and do
– Last Updated: Nov-14-16 9:53 AM EST –
I have no choice but a mask and nose plugs in a pool, even with keeping my eyes shut. My normal underwater swimming mode for my whole life, never got in the way of rolling because I developed better kinesthetic awareness due to that.
But I can't take chlorinated water in my eyes for more than half an hour these days. And I have the most horrid headache after even one roll in fresh water, let alone chlorinated, without nose plugs on. I can do it but it gets too uncomfortable for the repeated efforts needed when learning or retuning a roll. So I wear a dive mask that handles both.
Once I got the body motion, finally, it happened regardless of devices. But those things allowed me to get the body memory to start with.
Things take care of themselves. When I was getting my roll back this last summer in salt water, the need for a helmet to be safe (working alone) meant no more than nose plugs anyway. I take them off towards the end, but even with salt water the nasal flush gets old if too many repeats.
What a lot of people forget is ear plugs, I use Doc's tethered. I ran into too many people who developed ear issues from not wearing them. And usually once you develop an ear problem, it is lifetime.
that was great.
Like “rolling out of bed”…
I have taught a lot of Greenland rolling sessions – there are some teaching methods that work pretty well but you need to tune your advise to the student, especially if they are not comfortable under water, etc.
Different people learn by different ways and by different explanations. That’s why a good instructor will often repeat themself, but not in the exact same way. That’s also why a student might “click” with one good instructor but not another.
During a “hipsnap” you are rotating your pelvis, or in other words, one hip is rising and the other one is falling. Some people concentrate on the whole movement and some on just one hip/leg or the other.
Here’s a land drill that works well. I often have students perform this to learn about “hipsnap” and the body mechanics for bracing or a layback roll. This can be done on either side. For ease of explanation, the following directions are for your right side:
Lie on the ground on your right hip and right leg, knees gently bent, legs stacked on top of each other. Your head and torso are elevated, putting weight on your right elbow and the underside of your right forearm for support. Place both your palms side by side on the floor. This should feel fairly “normal”, a position you might use when, say, you are watching TV on the floor.
If you need a visual, please look at https://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/212485/116773024/stock-photo-a-man-is-lying-on-the-ground-116773024.jpg .
The difference is that your feet/legs should be together (resting on top of the lower), and that both palms should be flag against the ground.
Now from this position, simply recover to an upright sitting position using as little energy as possible.
If you try to get up INCORRECTLY like most beginners try to roll, you will push down hard with your arms and throw your head upward. This just doesn’t work, or takes a huge amount of power. Normally on the water this movement will cause your kayak to roll upwards, your face breaks the surface, and you crash back down into the water.
Instead, keep your head stationary or down, and just roll your hips, keeping your upper body “quiet” until you are sitting flat on your bum with both knees level. At that point you just sit up. You will feel pressure in your hands/arms but this is only a by-product from the hip-snap rather than an independent movement.
Keep working on this until it’s easy and you will have learned the mechanics for a layback roll or brace. Most rolls are all technique and take very, very little effort.
Play around with what happens when you lift your head, etc, remembering that hard pressure with your hands against the ground will not work on the water – your paddle will sink.
This is a simple, natural example showing that despite what you often hear, the only unnatural thing about rolling is being upside down in water and the spatial confusion that results. The movement itself is perfectly natural.
Greg Stamer
Somethng I’ve used a few times
This is on the righting the kayaker after a failed roll during practice.
I’ve run into a few instances where someone is close to completing a roll, but seem to get stuck just short. Different people making different suggestions and trying different things, and something just isn’t clicking for them.
I’ve stood at the bow or stern in waist-deep water as mentioned above, and served to grab hold of the kayak so that they never lose momentum and bring them up every time. This has been especially useful where someone will sit and think and sit and think and think and sit and think, and manage only a handful of attempts over an entire session.
It has worked. Once they are over the possibility of not coming up, they relax and start going for it repeatedly and actually performing what I’m describing to them. I think the last time I let a girl roll up 3 times in a row without my touching the kayak before I told her she had been doing it on her own. I had to move clear away from the kayak while she did it again before she believed me.
So my thought there was to get someone to feel what it should feel like without any risk. It seems a quick way to eliminate those panic impulses of pulling hard on the paddle.
tailor to student
I didn’t reply to this thread earlier, because I had ZERO success teaching people to roll, despite being able to roll in several different style myself.
Now, a few days later, I read the response and find it amusing. Just about everything people say NOT to do, either I was taught that way, or knew others learned that way. I rolled up after only 2 hrs instruction! And one other guy rolled up within an hour!
Basically, there’s no “right” way to teach rolling. (many “wrong” way of teaching work great!)
While I’m a lousy kayak rolling instructor, I had some experience teaching in classroom and pretty good at teaching skiing. The ONLY thing that’s always true about teaching is it MUST BE tailored to individual student!
Kayak rolling being a relatively less intuitive motion, that tailoring and teaching to individual is even more important.
While learning new style of rolls, I got tips and “helps” from others in the pool. The success rate was a lot lower. I found TEACHING EXPERIENCE is the most important one. If you’re lucky to have someone who have similar body style and teach you something that works for them, your chance of success is good if not excellent. An instructor who had taught (and failed) MANY students has a lot more tricks to get you up. Your success rate is usually excellent.
So, one sure way to learn quickly is find instructors with high level rating. They’ve done enough teaching just to get their stars. But if you’re determined to go the “friends” route, just try different people.
Of course I tried it the minute
I got home, on both sides. Engages the core for sure. Thought maybe I was keeping too much weight on my forearm and hands so I tried it without putting my arm and other hand on the carpet, keeping my head down. Took a bit more oomph but I was able to sit up on both sides.
But I just can’t relate to it being that easy hanging upside down in a kayak. Longer distance to travel.
My boat’s on my back porch so maybe I’ll put it on the grass and try it from the cockpit this weekend.
Longer distance to travel…
“But I just can’t relate to it being that easy hanging upside down in a kayak. Longer distance to travel”.
Rookie,
That’s a common misconception. In a good layback roll your head is never hanging way down toward the bottom, except perhaps if you capsize unexpectedly and haven’t tucked yet.
When you capsize you first tuck forward so that you are almost kissing the deck. This moves your head and torso close to the surface. When you sweep, your head should never be more than a few inches underwater. This requires good core work.
In a layback roll, such as the standard Greenland roll, the sweep does much more than just move the paddle to 90 degrees to the cockpit. As you sweep you allow your torso to stretch far away from the cockpit. The kayak responds to this movement by starting to lay on its side, so that by the time your sweep is done, and before your “hipsnap” happens the kayak is already almost upright. Your hipsnap simply amplifies the rotary motion of the kayak started by your sweep.
The “rolling on the floor” drill is a close approximation of what little effort it takes to roll a kayak when you hone your technique.
Once you get a roll, practice performing it as slowly as possible and with as little effort as possible to further refine your technique. This is much more difficult than a violent roll. Note that this doesn’t mean that you have to roll in slow-motion when you accidentally capsize in a real situation, but practicing this will fine tune your technique and point out flaws.
Greg Stamer
Yes
– Last Updated: Nov-15-16 7:12 AM EST –
I've read criticism of Eric Jackson's teaching whitewater folks to come up on the back deck. The critics claim it exposes the paddler to more risk of head/face injury. It's that same misconception that the paddler is just hanging upside down.
The
Absolute BEST way to learn how to teach rolling.
Is to find several GOOD rolling teachers and help teach and observe and learn the styles each uses.
Incorporate these different techniques…and build a large repertoire of methods.
This can take years of diligent work and learning…there is no fast track. Not all good rollers become good teachers.
Be prepared to change methods and roll types depending on the student. {learn how to teach several types of rolls with both Greenland paddle and Euro paddle}
The hardest thing to break is fear…never be the one that instills fear. {the only way to cope with fear is slow and meticulous… and it takes a lot of sessions and a lot of TIME} Keep it safe and work slow and not to the point of the student becoming fatigued.
Many small sessions {if possible} are better than a long marathon.
Best Wishes
Roy
Watched some rolling videos tonight,
with underwater scenes. One done in slow motion showed a guy doing the tuck, so I get that concept. The next guy was hanging upside down. Different flavor, I guess.
Definitely not something I would try on my own, but I’m curious enough to play with getting my boat on its side in (shallow) water this weekend, using my stick for buoyancy, to see if I can rock it back up. Don’t think I can get injured doing that, other than getting a face full of water.
Small steps.
I struggle with the roll
ever since I got back into boating.
I think its a combination of things- a loose fit in the boat, poor technique, lack of physical ability/flexibility, sporadic practice, and absence of good instruction.
I have a hard time bending over to tie my shoes- having some extra pounds doesn’t help and I have some arthritis in my knees and hips which limits range of motion.
My roll instruction for others includes helping them try “practicing hip snaps” or “spotting”. I’m the poster child for what not to do so I don’t teach.
I tried to clean my roll up at week of rivers- charlotte ww course instructors- by far my best roll was the one I did at the beginning of class as a demonstration- things went down hill from there- I just think that fat arthritic men are destined to cheat their way up on the back deck with a sweep.
I pretty much boat with the philosophy “just don’t tip over”.
ALWAYS starts with the lower body
– Last Updated: Nov-16-16 6:06 PM EST –
What you do is how you think about something. First rule a musician finds out, usually by repetitively playing something wrong until the light bulb goes off.
The roll is all about the lower body starting a motion and that being supported thru the body in an upward fashion - hips first and head and shoulders essentially wait for their moment. That moment comes further out than you think it will, hence the frequent mistake which I suffer from when I have to get my roll back. Like I will be battling when I go to get back my left side this coming year. The mistake is to take that moment too soon - head comes up early and wrecks the lower body motion and oops you are in the water again.
There are many images that can help with this, depends on the person what will work best. Keep an eye on the paddle blade, that one only helps if you have open eyes under water. Or keep your cheek pressed onto your shoulder. Or anything else that will keep the head down. I haven't found one that works all the time for me but maybe I just lack creativity.
Anyway, make sure how you think about the roll is a good match for what your body has to do to be successful. Before you ever get wet. I learned every way from Sunday how NOT to approach the roll mentally in the process of trying to get my first one. It was not the instructors' fault. I was an odd duck and needed a different way to think about it than the usual approach they had found successful. I just didn't realize that myself until after I had nailed it.
You Didn’t Mention…
the one that helped me most in the beginning and that was to keep the head back; focus on coming up looking toward the sky and not looking down toward the bottom of the pool/lake/deep blue sea.
Baby question:
Under what circumstances would one attempt to roll up using your weakest side? Not in a practice session, but while touring.
I’m a righty, so my right arm and shoulder are stronger than my left. If I could roll and was upside down in my cockpit, wouldn’t I want to use my strongest side to get back up?