good to hear
Nice to hear what the problem was. I’ve only seen one glass bulkhead fail, ever, and it wasn’t on a WS boat. It was on a very poorly made boat. It was a super thin poorly installed bulkhead and it had just been moved from -10 degrees to 60 degrees, oh yea someone knoched on it pretty hard.
GOMSKS was very cool, I never got a chance to try out any WS boats, I was being kept in the NDK tandem by my girlfriend. I know what my next boat purchase will be.
I said it at GOMSKS and I’ll say it again, that is one cool dog you have. See you at the next show/demo.
marketing images, buying images
"If the GOMSK gig is to suceed for the long term it will be with manufacture particapation hearing this talk of a defective boat and the like will not do anything too encourage other Rep/vendor to particapate. As who needs this smack talking with out getting the facts."
MikeMac, If that kayak is available to demo without a front bulkhead then you’ve got to accept the consequences of what happens on the water. Especially if there’s no float bag. You took a calculated risk to make a kayak available for a customer if it didn’t have flotation.
“Smack talking” is what Wilderness Systems did marketing the Tempest for 6months before a model was available. Don’t get me wrong,the Tempest is a good boat and I’d go the extra mile to get a kayak to a customer to try out but for the public setting of demos where you can’t control what happens,like an ad campaign,you can’t risk the bad press providing a boat without flotation.
You must be squeezed between a rock and a hard place to think people spending $3000 on kayak are “talking smack” about their experiences at a demo. Was that composite Tempest on the water without a front float bag?
What I find irritating are people in a business who don’t use the boats affecting the design process to such a degree that customers go back to the dealer or rep and say “what happened?”,and the dealer/rep have to get creative to cover some bean counters/corporate managers “smack”.
FACTS
I’ll list the facts as they are, no smack here!
Every person who paddled the Tempest 165 composite listen to my discussion of the features and why there was no bulkhead installed. The plastic model was offered to anybody with objections to the lack of bulkhead, funny thing happened nobody wanted to paddle the plastic model.
My objections to the post’s above were the assumtions that the bulkhead simply failed after a flip thus the boat is defective. That is simply untrue. When made aware of this bye flatpic I joined this board to set the record striaght.
As far as the other things you mention goes;
WS Shipped Tempest’s the day it was offered at OR in 02 and the demand soon exceeded the supply so some people waited.
I spent all weekend on the beach at Castine and met a lot of really nice and enthusiastic people paddled with quite a few so I think my risk of suppying a boat without the front bulkhead was a good one. I wonder what the woman who was paddling the boat at the time would say about this bs, as i recall she and I got the boat ashore emptyed the boat she got back in and we worked on more paddle contorl and boat lean she was stoked as I recall.
All the other stuff is intenet bs no disrespect intended to anyone just an obsevation from the hills of VT on a Hot day in july!!
no bs.
I can tell your intention and sentiment is honest and that you expressed yourself clearly at the demo that the glass tempest didn’t have a front bulkhead.
My point is that you can explain up one side and down the other about why something is a particular way and it doesn’t matter how people experience what THEY see. If the reality is that there isn’t a front bulkhead and there’s a wet exit the bow will go down. To you and me that’s an obvious thing to explain and it’s not material to how the kayak handles. But at a demo you can’t control HOW people perceive a flooded bow.
Especially a bunch of beginners. A salesman doesn’t often hear the conversations people have out of ear shot so if you’re hearing “internet bs about broken bulkheads” then you’ve got a strong clue that going to a demo with a less than perfect model will affect the impression of the product.
What I was refering to about WS marketing campaign for the Tempest was that it was being advertised long before it was released. Full page ads in various magazines building up interest before the release date,it’s a smart marketing campaign but I’m leery of heavy advertising.
QCC Info
Thanks for mentioning that Swedge. That’s always a point of interest for me unfortunately. How do you find the 30 inch cockpit for entering/exiting? (they are 30" aren’t they?)
Those are shoes!
it seems silly to restrict your choice of possible kayaks in order to wear shoes in them.
You may be right. . .
I recently aquired a pair of neo booties, and I just compared the length to the “shoes”. Even with the thick rubber reinforcements, I was amazed at what a smaller footprint they have; almost 3/4" less.
I think I will paddle the 170 again with these on before I choose. I really like that boat, and will be very happy if this makes a difference.
I’m known to be silly on occasion, and sometimes it helps to have that pointed out before a major purchase! Thanks Lee. The little bits of boat and paddling wisdom that this forum provide sometimes fit together in really useful ways!
well
– Last Updated: Jul-23-04 7:30 AM EST –
Its tight but I can do it, I cant take my legs in or out individually.
marketing
A LOT of kayak design by the major manufacturers is to satisfy show room performance and beginners perspective. This is a roundabout way of saying that the “innovations” of seat designs or large volume cockpits is to satisfy what happens in the transition of getting in/out of the kayak and not what happens on the water swinging a paddle. The Tempest IS a good boat but you really aren’t a BIG guy requiring a very big boat,when the wind picks up the difference between floating high on the water and being connected to the water is very real as one doesn’t become stronger as the wind becomes stronger. If you could feel comfortable in the T-170 with booties/water socks you’d be in a boat that would be much more managable in high winds for day paddling. This isn’t to say the 180 isn’t a good choice,but my sense is that you’re inbetween the two boats for day paddling use.
I’m close to 200lbs and find the 170 is too big for day paddling. Hopefully WS has put in a slightly wider seat in the T170 so that the paddlers who are the right size for the boat can use the hip pads the seat is designed to use.
Enuff?
I just checked in quick on this thread, was unaware of most of the latter posts on the whole Tempest thing at GOMSKS until now. I was away on vacation and offline except for necessary emails.
First, I apologize for anything I said that was avoidably inaccurate. I said what I did because I saw what looked and acted like a bulkhead failure - the overturned boat was floating as normal until it was pulled over the would-be “rescuers” boat bow down. Any comments flowed from that.
Second, I posted what I did in order to try and mitigate the earlier email. Seems that intention was entirely missed.
Finally, GOMSKS isn’t in this at all. It was a beach like a beach at any regular paddle day, with lots of reps and boats and people and not a whole lot of clarity about what any individual was doing. Like trying out their new boat. The same thing could have happened at any paddlefest. (Float bags?)
I have since recommended (in offline email) to a potential buyer that they contact the rep personally to find out what the situation was with that boat. I just heard that they have caught up on paddling.net. While the Tempest is not my cup of tea for a number of non-bulkhead (or hatch cover) related reasons, I am glad to hear that things seem to have resolved.
And I agree, the dog is absolutely great.
Celia
Hmmm…
Well, just got back to this thread.
It is good to know the bulkhead did not fail. It did not occur to me that the boat simply did not have a forward bulkhead.
Many of us trying out boats at GOMSKS were edging boats.
When trying new boats it is not unusual for someone to end up swimming. It might be wise to bring boats with bulkheads in such situations.
I witnessed the incident while standing and talking with some of the most experienced kayakers at the symposium. We were all rather surprised to see the Tempest sink.
I did not persue more information on the date in question. I went on the try several other boats that day. The incident did discourage me from making the Tempest one of the boats I demoed.
The organizers of GOMSKS are not to blame for so many of us on the beach witnessing the Tempest sink nor what we thought of seeing such.
Try the Impex “Serenity”
You really should have looked at the Impex “Serenity”. It is the larger version of the one you tried. I think you would have liked it. It has two versions. A “Sport” version with a lower deck/volume, and the standard version that is a larger volume, higher deck, and has plenty of room under the deck.
That is a well made boat that handles well.
Happy Paddling!
Bill