Why GP easier
Just speculation with nothing under it, but I wonder if the diff with GP is the amount of movement that is actually going on all the time.
I find that even with a GP made to handle my smaller hands I move my hands around a good bit, especially side to side, and generally make more frequent changes in where the tension is in the lower arm. My GP’s are also more flexible than the Euro, so I tend to pull less hard since there is a real limit to how much that gets you in power. I suspect that I tend to fall into a more fixed position on the Euro.
Again, just idle thought.
Also - I agree that some tendonitis cannot be handled by other than full rest. I had a bout of that several years ago, where it was so bad it hurt to even open a heavy door at work. It took three months of really taking it easy on that side before the wrist settled down. And I still have to be more careful with that one.
Tried unfeathered
Pedro
Tried going unfeathered and for me that did not “feel” quite right. 30 degrees of feather for this old body works well.
Relaxing my grip on the paddle and getting away from having a “control” hand have also helped my situation. However, what’s going to work for one person, may not work for another - it’s just so specific to an individual, both the cause and the cure.
Had a brief, unhappy affair with Nova Care - it happens.
Mike
GP more flexible?
Tell that to my Superior Carbon! It's stiff as steel and still easier on me.
I think the difference is largely due to the more relaxed/open grip on the blade roots and having arms in closer to the body (boxer vs. ballerina).
Most of my wood paddles are not much softer and don't exhibit noticeable flex. I do have one thin/flat GP that flexes more - but I don't find this to really do much other than to help fine tune my stroke. I can still add more power by adjusting technique to avoid overpowering and flexing the blades much.
The grip change actually gave me a little tendinitis while adapting to GP - as I was over-gripping.
Mine are
By whatever chance, both of the wood GP’s I had made ended up being from a relatively soft piece of wood. Luck of the draw - my husband’s from the same source are stiffer.
But there are two other diff’s on mine too that could leave them more flexible regardless. Because of my smaller hands, they are well under 3" in width, and the loom isn’t terribly big around either.
- Unfeathered
2. Stretch your wrists and forearms before paddling.
- Do NOT pull back beyond the hips on the follow-through.
agree with greyak
Once you get used to using the full length of a Greenland paddle, hand position instinctually heads to the least stressfull position for any given stroke. The ability to slide the hands and the absence of feathering also allows the hands to stay open more readily with a GP than with a Euro. This in turn reduces stress across the joints. Higher cadence rather than more powerful stroke nicely illustrates the general principle that GPs are more about finesse than muscle. Not to say you can’t do powerful strokes with a GP (it’ll act sort of like a wing used properly), but it just makes things easier. Consider stress across the fingers/wrist during bracing. By sliding into the extended position, less force is needed (longer leaver) for the same effect resulting in less stress across the joints. Can do this with a Euro paddle, but it is second nature with a GP.
Are you sure it is tendonitis?
Years ago I had a bad bike wreck that bent my right wrist backwards more than it should have been. Very painful at first, but it got less so over the coming weeks. Later, it flared up again, severely enough that I saw a hand surgeon about it. Both my regular doc and he suspected the cartilage was torn. Examination after a dye injection confirmed it was torn in three places. The damaged tissue had to be surgically removed before the cartilage could heal properly.
go to the enlightenment side!!
Hi Matt,
So like you & probably others will laugh at this one, but you outta try canoeing, ww or flatwater sometime…isn’t focused on the higher abdomen/shoulders as much as in using kayak spoons.
$.01
Steve
bear with me on this one
I don't know the best way to articulate this but I am going to try... everyone has different physiology, body mechanics, body shape, and all sorts of little things that make us unique. Making a blanket statement to go with a feathered, or UNfeathered, paddle doesn't seem like a good idea.
Now on to 'twisting' the wrist. Back the dark ages, more than five years ago it was common to hear a guide, or instructor, mention twisting your wrist like you are 'reving' a motorcycle. This is generally agreed upon to be poor advice in most situations. So the question is 'how do I get both blades to enter the water with good catch?'. Twisting the wrist is one way, but not the best. Unfeathered is one way, but it doesn't work for everyone. Why? For lots of people using an unfeathered paddle would mean 'twisting' their wrists to get good catch. Assuming we have all heard of torso rotation, we want to use that to our advantage. Normally when we 'wind up' for a stroke using good torso rotation (starting the rotation at pelvic bone) we are set up automatically for the blade to get pretty good catch on the water. (This assumes we lift the arm farthest away from the 'catching' blade, rather than dropping the arm closest to the 'catching' blade.) If we need to make minor adjustments to our blade angle as it relates to the water we do so by raising or lowering the back arm slightly. Or, adjusting how much we rotate. Then we 'unwind' the torso, drive with the foot, release the blade, and we are ready to go on the other side. For most people I know that use good torso rotation, unfeathered blades don't automatically set people up for a clean catch.
There is no simple answer. You just have to play around with what works best for you. Remember this, if we were to paddle for the first time ever in our life with a kayak paddle it would not matter if the blades were 'right' or 'left' handed. Our bodies would not know the difference because it would be a completely knew skill for us.
My advice to everyone when it comes to paddling- don't get caught up in 'right' or 'left' handed, 'onside' or 'offside', 'strong' or 'weak' side.
edit---
typing and using a mouse are the worst thing for my wrists. When my wrists hurt (and they do sometimes) I stop using a computer and keep paddling. My wrists feel better a lot quicker than when I stop paddling and keep using a computer.
it might not happen consciously
it is a good idea to make a conscious effort to not have a control hand (use both hands equally). Otherwise we fall into the trap of thinking ‘I am left handed therefor my left hand is my control hand’.
Brilliant
That was quite a good post.
I have to say that, most people who give advice on this board do so from their personal experience. And the result is that the advice can be more indicative of lack of experience…
Yeah, rather than the bold “no feather”, or “Greenland paddles saved my life”, it is refreshing to hear someone say, simply, there may be a lot of possibilities.
It never fails to amaze me that, after an overuse injury, people are first to look at buying something new rather than look to such things as technique, or more common, their lack of training. Too many times, people go out on that long trip of the year, get a joint or muscle tweak, and never face the fact that they mostly likely didn’t train for it!
OK, more specifics.
I gotta say to the “no feather” crowd, get over it. Do you paddles as much as a flatwater sprint kayaker in training? 70 degree feather is still common and…tendonitis is very, very rare. And if it does happen, it is looked at as a training issue. More often than not, the renowned expedition kayakers use feathered paddles. The argument just doesn’t catch water.
The Greenland argument is fascinating. Often credited to smaller blades that allow a higher cadence- quite valid, IMO- it has also been pointed out by Greyak and others that the surface area can often be equal. It cannot be both, now, can it?
As for the “higher cadence” of GP’s, while that is very valid (think of the stress on the joints if there is a lot of resistance every stroke), the same can be accomplished with any paddle. More importantly, this is arguably best accomplished by bringing the center of effort in closer. In other words, a shorter paddle. It is interesting how many of the very experienced rough water play paddlers, and long distance expeditioners that I know,use big blade paddles, but 195-210cm long (205 being the median). Simply an easier gear, and easier on the joints (Oscar Chalupsky, at 6’5", and going very fast on a low resistance boat, uses paddles 210-215cm!).
So, while gear can certainly make a difference, doing such things as suddenly increasing volume of training, or a long day playing in rough water, are simply asking for trouble no matter what the tool.
Biomechanics- this is a very interesting aspect. If the elbow is kept in line with the direction of applied force, the wrist is not required to grasp as tight. Think of it this way- with your hand at shoulder height, and the elbow low (think “parade wave”), have a partner push against your palm. Try to resist- you cannot, not very well. In fact, an opponent can likely overcome you with one or two fingers. Also notice that you must flex (proper term here, flex vs extend) your wrist to support any power you put in. Now, raise your elbow until it is the same height as the hand (hand, elbow, shoulder at same level). Now have the friend push against your hand (likely a closed hand now, they will push against your knuckles). The difference in biomechanical efficiency is stunning.
So, given that, why do people paddle in a biomechanically weak position, especially one that requires flexing at the wrist? That is simply asking for tendonitis!
One aspect of gear I do find interesting is the proper GP anthrometrically sized loom diameter. Often, it is larger than euro paddles. Given how much research there has been done on grip diameter of tools that require torque, and injuries, I sometimes think the tendency of some companies to offer smaller diameter handles is odd. It runs contrary to (often overlooked and underappreciated )established GP loom design, and against the mentioned research.
karl
wrist angle
lotsa good advice on this thread. rotate torso well and notice wrist is more perpendicular to shaft, talkin bout a straight shaft here. this will cause less strain. stretch and strengthen. also be careful how you carry your boat to water.
Interesting note on feathering
A friend of ours who is a coach was messing around with a paddle one night by purposely leaving the ferrule loose of a split Euro with adjustable feather, seeing what happened when he paddled.
When he stopped to check after paddling a bit, the paddle had gone to a 15 degree feather pretty much as a natural result of his paddling. He more often than not paddles with no feather these days.
Then there is another coach I know who swears by a 45 degree feather, and if you watch him paddle it obviously works very well. That’s if you can keep up with him to watch.
Another gem, karl
and hidden inside is the subliminal message ‘don’t arm paddle’
Well done.
Twisting or not
"everyone has different physiology, body mechanics, body shape, and all sorts of little things that make us unique."
I agree that we are all a bit different. However, our individual bodies are pretty much the same on both sides. It would take a grossly deformed body to allow both blades of a feathered paddle to enter the water correctly without twisting the shaft. Twisting the shaft can be accomplished by twisting the wrist, by lifting one arm more than the other, or with a combination of the two. If you don't twist your wrist at all, how do you get that offside blade aligned for the catch? The answer is to lift one arm more than the other. This produces a stroke that is not the same on both sides and it certainly isn't good for the shoulder.
Celia told us about a friend who left the ferrule loose on a paddle and stopped his stroke to find that he only had a 15 degree feather. He now paddles unfeathered. I can't say with 100% certainty because I wasn't there, but I'd bet that if he stopped his stroke on the other side, it would be 15 degrees in the opposite direction. This, of course, assumes that he was doing the same stroke on both sides.
The problem with feathered paddles is that while one side might work perfectly, the paddler has to do something to make the other side work. When you walk, do you do the same thing with both legs and feet? Now immagine taking one foot, disconnecting it at the ankle, rotating it 30 degrees in either direction, and reconnecting it. Do you think your gait would still be the same on both sides? Of course not! The rest of your body would have to do some serious compensating for that rotated foot. Confucius say: Your feet are to the floor what your paddle blades are to the water.
Pedro Almeida
walking analogy
"When you walk, do you do the same thing with both legs and feet?" The answer is NO we do not. We weight one foot more than the other during our stride, one step is usually longer than the other, and our feet rarely point straight ahead or even at the same angle.
Got me think me thinking again
Karl
Must say that I’ve enjoyed your posts in the past.
I’ve looked into the literature on overuse injuries in elite paddlers - rare problem and they are using 70 degree plus angles of feather. It’s the aging/not so aging weekend warriors like myself who are more likely to develop tendonitis.
Your comment about paddling biomehanics has got me thinking - hopefully, not for the last time!
Cat Stevens sums up my situation:
“Like everybody else
I’m searching through
What I’ve heard …”
Mike
You’re right…
We should all make an appointment for surgery. Now, should I have my foot rotated 30 or 45 degrees to compensate for my minor asymmetries?
I've answered this type of comment before and actually did so in my last post: "I agree that we are all a bit different. However, our individual bodies are pretty much the same on both sides. It would take a grossly deformed body to allow both blades of a feathered paddle to enter the water correctly without twisting the shaft."
Hey, Paddlemore, please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be an argumentative jerk; I'd bring up the same points if we were sitting together having a beer. I just look at it from an anatomical and biomechanical point of view, and I think I give good reasons for my unfeathered suggestions.
So far I haven't heard any arguments for feathered paddles that really make sense to me. The "sprint racers do it" and the "he really knows what he's doing and uses a feathered paddle" answers don't do it for me. If someone can explain how a feathered paddle provides a biomechanical advantage while allowing a symmetrical forward stroke, I'd be satisfied. I don't think it can be done because no matter what, a paddler using a feathered paddle has to do something to get one of the blades aligned for the catch. Some use their wrist, some use the whole arm, most use a combination of the two.
Pedro
GP
For me, a very light greenland paddle stopped swelling and pain.
My Experience
I had wrist pain feathered. None when I went unfeathered. Switched to a GP.
I have chronic tendonitis in my left knee. I can ride a bike with my 'friends' if I do a long, easy warm up first.
Repeat: Long, easy warm up before going hard. I swear it makes all the difference. I need about a half hour warm up before pushing hard. If you're starting off with some pain, hit the ibuprofen hard (600 mg) about a half hour before starting out. Do 600mg again 6 hours later.
Good luck.
Oh, and this isn't really my advice. It was advice given to me by MDs that worked.