Airplane wing
Would an airplane fly if you put the wing on facing backwards? Same principle.
Alan
No, I haven’t. Correction. Rudders.
– Last Updated: Jul-22-12 8:10 PM EST –
No, I haven't used a wing and admitted in the OP that I don't fully understand the physics.
I realize the wing blade has asymmetry, but that asymmetry must be something different from the top/bottom blade asymmetry of a non-wing Euro.
So far, I will accept that the the wing asymmetry will not allow side switching paddling. So I therefore will stay on one side of the canoe with my single wing paddle.
Still, the question remains as to whether I can get the propulsive wing benefit if I:
(1) correct my single-sided stroke using traditional techniques;
(2) paddle uncorrected with a Foster-Wilson inside circle forward stroke; or
(3) paddle uncorrected by using a rudder.
My opinion
1) No
2) Don’t know what this stroke is but I would guess no as it would prevent a proper wing stroke.
3) Yes but the increased drag of the rudder correction may be greater than the advantage of the wing paddle. Maybe an asymmetric hull could counter the turning effect of the wing paddle without too much drag?
Rudder drag
My personal belief is that rudders cause less drag than any single blade correction does. I certainly can paddle my outrigger canoe much faster with the rudder than I can without the rudder using correction strokes.
Racing kayaks have rudders. I assume that’s because the rudder drag is less than the minor yaw corrections that even a double blader has to employ.
The Foster-Wilson stroke begins by inducing a carve on a heeled hull. Once the carve is established, the canoe can be propelled with uncorrected forward strokes on one side only. However, the canoe is not exactly going in a straight line. It is travelling along the circumference of a very large diameter circle. Hence, it has to be kicked over onto the proper heading now and again.
Question: wing stroke sweep component
We really need an experiment, but I’d like to try to understand the single wing question analytically.
It would help me understand the possible conflict between wing technique and single stick corrections if I knew the answer to this question:
For paddles of the same length, held at the same angle and propelled with the same force, does a proper forward stroke with a wing paddle have more, less or the same sweep (turning) component as a proper forward stroke with a non-wing paddle?
In answering, I’d prefer the angle to be as high as possible to mirror as closely as possible a single blade canoe paddle.
Rudderless Outriggers
Check out these rudderless outriggers:
http://www.aotearoaaito.com/
Scroll down to to bottom and watch “Best Te Aito 2008.”
Check out the double bend wide blade paddles (no camber needed).
Rudderless is the traditional way to paddle outrigger.
Ho Glenn, we sooo need to talk !
FWIW, I’m working on the ragged, cutting edge of this stuff.
Also glad Clyde is here too …
we need single blades pat!
More turning, I think …
“For paddles of the same length, held at the same angle and propelled with the same force, does a proper forward stroke with a wing paddle have more, less or the same sweep (turning) component as a proper forward stroke with a non-wing paddle?”
With a canoe paddle your stroke trajectory is very close to the hull with minimum turning caused due to this. With a wing, you start close, then move away, so there is more turning, I would think.
Not enough to matter if you have a rudder though. The single most obvious issue is switching sides… Maybe Pat from ONNO has something up his sleeve on this, but we have yet to see if anything will materialize…
My wings have considerably more “bite” than similarly sized non-wing paddles and I feel there is a definite benefit in using them over non-wing for speed. I’ve paddled my surfski with only half wing and it works very well on the “right” side. I’ll have to try a half-wing again next time I’m out with the ski and compare to my outrigger paddle to see if I notice any difference in speed or efficiency with the very different strokes the two require…
The quick and dirty experiment …
… would be for an experienced wing kayaker simply to break down a wing paddle in half and use it as a single blade. It would help if he or she could pop some sort of temporary T-grip in the shaft, but the half blade could be held without a grip, Indian style.
The thing is, this experimenter-paddler would also have to be very adept at all forms of single blade correction because the wing may work better with some forms of correction than with others. By these, I mean:
– correction at the catch (bow draw forward stroke)
– correction during the pull (pitch stroke)
– correction at exit (rudder-goon, J-stroke)
– correction at both catch and exit (C-stroke)
– correction during full or partial in-water recovery (Canadian stroke, Florida stroke, palm-rolled Indian stroke)
– uncorrected Foster-Wilson inside circle stroke
Double blade wing paddles took off in both racing and recreational paddling with the only empirical proof being a 2% increase in the times of the Swedish national team. I’m almost shocked at how blasé single blade canoeists have been to this dramatic performance development in double blade land.
Perhaps this is consistent with the precipitous decline in the relative popularity of single blade canoeing and the concomitant atrophy of interest in sophisticated single blade skills.
Been There, Done That
– Last Updated: Jul-23-12 6:03 PM EST –
Since 1988, when I bought my first wing paddle. Canoe paddlers response has been the dihedral and the double dimple canoe paddles. My doctor swears by his "puka" (holes) strategically placed on the single canoe blade paddle. Many surfski paddlers have tried their two piece wings (separately and whole) on their oc-1's and come to the same conclusion: no substitute for conventional single flat blade.
In fact, most single blade outrigger paddlers prefer today, what Gillespie invented over 30 years ago: the double bend shaft and the curved tip at the end of the blade.
ps: forgot to say that using half of my 2 piece wing paddle really sucks when paddling my 20+ years old monohull Reverie. A pitched stroke will work somewhat when using the right blade for the left or the left for the right.
Olympic High Knee Paddlers
Only paddle on One Side. They don’t switch sides. If there was any competitive advantage to using a wing paddle, they would of switched to them immediately, like the Olympic sprint kayakers did.
Why Bother with a Wing?
When you can use a single blade as a foil?
Check out these rudderless paddlers:
http://youtu.be/oGFYZOCkpSk
For them rough or flat water doesn’t matter.
Do they turn?
They were only going straight in the video.
They Were In A Race!
And the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. So you go straight. But if you mean the canoes? Of course they turn, for they were designed to be paddled without a rudder and with a single bladed canoe paddle.
Clyde - rudderless outriggers
Are they generally thought to be “Tahitian” outriggers, more suited for protected water than ruddered “Hawaiian” open ocean boats?
I can easily see a 21’-22’ hull being paddled rudderless if it doesn’t have much rocker and/or has a sort of molded in stern skeg. My highly rockered Huki works in quiet water without a rudder, but the ruddered me would demolish the rudderless me in a race.
Do rudderless va’as race against ruddered ones?
Perhaps 20 Years Ago
The modern sit inside Tahitian V-1 or Vaa is designed to track straight ahead with a long chine that runs from the back of the cockpit to the tail. I’m quite impressed with the way these craft can handle the rebounding (clapotis) waves along the sea clifts, and are almost as fast as the ruddered OC-1 (depending on who’s paddling). Also, unlike the old “lagoon” canoes, that you were probably thinking of, are designed to be surfed like your OC-1 in open ocean conditions. I don’t own any yet, but when I paddle them, I only paddle on one side.
ps: I belive there’s one for sale now in Florida that’s hardly been used?
you feel the water’s density, to any
– Last Updated: Jul-25-12 11:11 PM EST –
extent..sideways...you're creating a little bit of drag, but so does a rudder create drag. It all depends on the size/density of the hull vs the rudder's. A rudder and the two-bladed-thing = let's just say it's for some people. Just my $.1..but a concave blade buys you nothing. Probably buys a beginner something because their catch is so horrible = they're simply pull THE BLADE through the water without any respect to the hull. The Wing is rather old-physics in comparison to a flat but bent(forward) blade..and its shape is beavertail...imho. Just my crazy $.01 but when the $$$ gets out of the way you'll see more ottertail-forward-bend.
Boats and paddles evolving
Finally watched all the videos.
Those V-1s have less rocker and a long low profile tail. Must be fast in calm water. Looks like they might even be fish form waterlines, with the paddler in front of center, which would aid directional stability. No rudders, so I did see a couple of paddlers actually using stern rudder with the paddle and even one guy trying a bow draw.
Don’t understand the purpose of the cockpit. It must fill up when when you go huli, and then you’re sunk. I saw one guy bailing. A strong reason I went to the SOT OC1 was to stop worrying about taking on water after huli. Just hop back on and let it drain out the footwells. No 35 different rolls mumbo jumbo.
When I bought my Huki in California in 2004, I don’t think I saw anyone using a double bend paddle or a curved or lipped blade in a race. All I saw were single bend wood paddles with flat faces and T-grips. I had the impression that the outrigger paddlers were behind the marathon canoe racers in paddle sophistication. Now, in those videos, I saw a lot of carbon, double bends and curved power faces.
Lots of doubts, but I’d like to see …
… someone make a single wing.
Maybe I can just borrow a double wing for a while from a kayaker next time I see one. Once I figure out how to use a double wing, I don’t think it would take me long messing with the blade on one side to see if it would work.