@Celia said:
Any info on whether a PLB would have worked any better? Or is the signal issue so broad in that area that it would have been as flaky? Text lag is real. Where I go in Maine it can take a few minutes or 3 hours…
Communication with PLBs is satellite based, not ground based like cell phones. Thus the local terrain wouldn’t have had any negligible effect as long as there was a clear view of the sky and the unit was above water with the antenna mostly upright. The first criterion is taken care of with them being out on the water. Plenty of sky to be seen, so lots of satellites passing by at regular and predictable intervals. The latter two might have been more difficult given the water conditions, but I think if she was able to text then she’d have been able to hold a PLB out of the water for a while.
Depending on the local response time and what I already know about PLBs I’d bet that it could have saved more lives. I think it would have almost certainly brought help faster, which makes a big difference when cold is a factor.
Unfortunately a $300+ electronic gadget you’ll “never use” is a hard sell for all but the enthusiast.
@Sparky Given they got separated in what may have been shaky conditions, a PLB would likely not have saved the day for all in this one. Visible in water signals probably better after the search go to the right area. But it does elevate the question for smaller groups with more even skills.
I agree that a PLB would have gotten a quicker response by SAR to the location of whoever set it off as well as the general area of the rest of the family. While the initial cost of a PLB is about $250 here in the states (and there’s no subscription fee), it can also be used on land which is a big plus for hikers, skiers, etc.
@roym Is there enough boat traffic in the Apostles where a VHS marine radio with or w/o DSC would have been effective for a distress call?
Hmm - note in the latest story that the first boat on it and the one that found at least one of them was a private fishing vessel. Is that kind of proximity unusual or to be expected?
@Celia : No, certainly not for everyone. Reminders to know where the group emergency equipment is, and do your best not to get separated from it. Plenty of other things went wrong here that have already been well-covered, but I do think a PLB would have improved the situation overall. This, of course, from a biased PLB owner and former VHF devotee.
@Rookie : I worry that if every person that ventured out for an evening stroll or paddle had a PLB the authorities would get overwhelmed with accidental activations and emergencies that aren’t. Maybe they can differentiate by location and hand off some of them to the police, but it still concerns me.
@Sparky concerns about false alarms,
At one point outfitters in FL were renting out older versions of EPIRBs with rental boats. I wonder if anyone on this Board knows if that caused confusion.
@Celia said: @Sparky Given they got separated in what may have been shaky conditions, a PLB would likely not have saved the day for all in this one.
If the PLB caused a SAR operation, and one person was found by tracking the PLB, I bet they would continue the search for other persons, even if they were not able to communicate with the first persons found.
@Sparky961 said: @Rookie : I worry that if every person that ventured out for an evening stroll or paddle had a PLB the authorities would get overwhelmed with accidental activations and emergencies that aren’t. Maybe they can differentiate by location and hand off some of them to the police, but it still concerns me.
Hopefully they’ll have read the directions and know they can be prosecuted and fined for accidental/non-emergency activations. Plus, once a PLB is activated, it must be returned for a battery replacement which will cost the owner a few $$
@Allan Oleson
Something misunderstood here. Per the stories above they clearly spent time searching for all of them PLB or not. Nothing I said indicated they would stop looking under any conditions…
The problem is one of timeliness. If one or two people with a PLB are separated from the others, and they did get separated in this case, there is no assurance that the ones without a PLB could have been found before hypothermia had advanced. In that case something like a steady light may have been the only shot. (Hence my earlier comment that I need to replace the defunct laser flare.)
It still boggles my mind that anyone would take small children out in a tiny boat in Superior. I lived for 8 years in Michigan and my boyfriend and I made frequent trips up to the UP and Superior. Even in the Summer months, I recall that the water along the shoreline was dauntingly cold even just to wade into it barefoot, as I like to do whenever I am along any new coastline. Would most people submerge their toddler into a bathtub full of 50 degree water? I doubt it. Even though surface, near-shore temps have ranged up to 70 along the coast of Superior this summer, most of the Lake is still between 40 and 60 F.
They tried to call for help on the phone. The call went through but was broken off. This was enough to start a “small” SAR operation (or whatever one would call it) which was soon cancelled because there was no signs of a kayak.
Then the sister received the text message several hours later, and a real SAR operation was started, and the family was found.
It would seem obvious to me, that if a PLB had been used, the first SAR operation would not have been a small one but a real one. And when they after some time had found the family member carrying the PLB, they would not just have gone home but instead continued the search for more victims.
This would have happened long before the sister received the text. So there would have been a better chance of rescuing all family members.
Is there anything in this that you do not agree to?
@Rookie said:
I agree that a PLB would have gotten a quicker response by SAR to the location of whoever set it off as well as the general area of the rest of the family. While the initial cost of a PLB is about $250 here in the states (and there’s no subscription fee), it can also be used on land which is a big plus for hikers, skiers, etc.
@roym Is there enough boat traffic in the Apostles where a VHS marine radio with or w/o DSC would have been effective for a distress call?
Yes Before Labor Day there is plenty of traffic within the 5 mile mark reported to be the effective handheld distance. I have personally been able to contact the Coast Guard from 15 or so miles out so I think they must have some more to use than just the 5 miles. I talked , clear as day to the Coast Guard from between Bear and Devils Islands. There are even Lakers that are traveling on a daily basis just beyond the Islands. And NPS patrol boats. A Marine radio is an investment and out there it’s your lifeline. I buy mine for the features, not for the price…it’s my opinion that it is not a good place to save money.
PLB or not it is difficult to find a person , small person especially, in the dark, in any water, especially dark moving water. With hyperthermia working they wouldn’t normally last very long anyway.
Will the public think the water in the summer is cold and dangerous? I think not so much………….
This is the locals at Bayfield……….except for the retriever swimming in the right foreground. He’s not a local.
That’s Madalin Island in the distance to the right of the sailboat. Basswood in the center. Bayfield is the white buildings on the first point from the left to the second point…Somedays its like this. Some days its bad. The trick is knowing when and where to find this water and get off before it becomes bad water.
Allan
I am reluctant to characterize the SAR efforts as “small” compared to “real”. Starts and stops yes, but I am sure the first folks out were working as diligently as they could.
And with further explanation I see your thought process. I think we all agree that having the PLB signal would have shortened the time frames.
What I lack sufficient information to judge is whether the shortened time frame would have been short enough for the youngest of the kids if separated, in that cold water without protective clothing. Also can’t can’t speak to the likely time from the signal going out to a boat arriving in the vicinity since I don’t know the area.
@Celia said:
Allan
Also can’t can’t speak to the likely time from the signal going out to a boat arriving in the vicinity since I don’t know the area.
Coast guard is in Bayfield. Still many miles to the search area, 13+/-. Corp of Engineers is in Bayfield. Most of the NPS boats are in Little Sand Bay on the other side of the peninsula, 19 miles. Crew response times to the boats unknown. One of the CG boats was on shore when we were there. The road to Sand bay is 2 lane and very dark at night. I think your boat on scene time would be longer than desired. That may be why CG routinely calls for assistance from “any boat in the area.” The lake is the boss.
I was in the original wing of the historical museum in LaPointe, Madaline island. There was a tour guide, an Objibwa. He pointed to an old bent frame wood canoe hanging up above a door and called it a good safe boat. His ancestors went all over these islands in those boats. Sure you could do it. But you’d pick your weather. And I’ll bet some of the ancestors didn’t make it.
Of course you go to the maritime museum at Bayfield and you can see the map with all the wrecks blanketing the area where ships floundered.
If I can find it there was an experienced kayaker that was paddling around Superior as many have done. He had all the equipment. He had all the experience. He had all the training. They still got a PLB signal on him east of Grand Mairas and they found him dead in his wet suit floating near his kayak. The Lake is the Boss.
Best thing for kayaker is pessimism. Hope for the best think for the worst when gearing up. Not many would buy a cheap parachute to save money it’s just that kayaking looks so safe on TV commercials. Kayak companies for theost part don’t want warnings on the boats.
@Celia said:
Hmm - note in the latest story that the first boat on it and the one that found at least one of them was a private fishing vessel. Is that kind of proximity unusual or to be expected?
There are a lot of boats in and around the islands and as mentioned its not far from shipping channels either . Chances are someone was anchored off of Stockton Island that weekend, as they often are. A VHF call would almost certainly be heard. But people paddling SOTs on Lake Superior dont buy VHFs or PLBs or books, or charts or compasses…they just don’t. And they aren’t going to start.
The Park Service has their own mini-marina north of Bayfield in addition to Sand Bay. Even they dont go out for routine work when the waves are bigger than 4-5 feet. I’ve been out with them in the strait between Michigan, Madeline and Stockton in those conditions, and I’ve been there in similar conditions when they wouldn’t go out at all . They probably have bigger boats, I presume, that they can take out in any conditions for SAR.
