Right – but 3* absolutely requires 2*
Yes, I know that the new 3* award is totally specific to a discipline, so a sea kayaker training or assessing for 3* need not learn or perform in a canoe.
I guess what I was thinking is that you can’t skip 2* to get to 3* the way you could before. (That’s true, correct?). So there’s an implicit canoe requirement in 3* (and 4* and 5*).
So, sorry for any confusion.
Hmm - we’ll see
As Jim said, we had two of the three RCO’s in NA at Downeast and several people in our 3 star training were told that, while they could take the assessment, they could not receive a cert without having either an old 3 star or a new 2 star. The person doing the training is a high level coach as well and fully hooked in - he wasn’t making this up.
Not so sure that’s true
I’m just an uninvolved observer (who nevertheless thinks the recent changes are good and the new 4* very good)and all this stuff seems to be in flux if not made up on the fly at times. For example, is the now required separate navigation class for 4* an indoor class with no on water segment or not? Seemingly depends on who and where. However, I noticed that the 3* syllabus only says consistent paddling at a 2* level is appropriate for person assessing for a 3* award, but it is not required.
A 2* award is not a listed prerequisite for a 3* assessment while a “new” 3* award or an “old” 4* award is a listed prerequisite for a 4* assessment, but, interestingly, any 4* (old or new) is a prerequisite for the 5* assessment.
Its enough to make one’s hair hurt.
sigh
I’ve had students like this too. every one is ready to get on the water. And one poor guy is doing beach rolls. You have to slow down for the student who has the most needs. It’s a common problem in education, it doesn’t change with paddling.
However that said, once you’ve taught for a few years, you sort of adapt to deal with this sort of incident.<br />
What would your advice be?
Stop the class and make sure student can get in and out.
Exclude student for balance issue.
Ignore it until student is on water.
I like the first option. But I wasn’t there.
you said it!
No fun for you 
2* not required for 3* – indeed!
> A 2* award is not a listed prerequisite for a 3* assessment
I say, chap, you are spot on! (Just checked the actual documents.)
Stranger and stranger – what is the point of making a 2* sea kayaker do things in a canoe, and then saying you can skip that and go straight to 3* and beyond? (In the old scheme, lots of awardees started with the 3*; many got the 2* as a consolation prize.)
Either I am thoroughly missing the logic behind the new star award sequence, or somebody in the BCU has screwed up. Either (or both) is possible.
Think of it as an exercise in…
… navigation skills.
Shortcuts are put there for those who can find them/take advantage of them? Those who don’t shouldn’t take the fast track anyway - and need the longer route to get seat time?
Nah, can’t make that much sense.
Check above David, and…
You and eel are right that the syllabus doesn’t seem to list the 2 star as a pre-req, but based on the policy at Downeast where there were 2 of the 3 RCO’s in NA present I suspect that what we heard there is what things will be by this coming spring. Those of us with an old 3 star and 4 star training could go right to the new 3 star this time round, but others were required to have a new 2 star to get an award. And Steve M and the other coaches were really emphasizing the new 2 star to those of us they knew had started up the ladder at the old 3 star level.
Things are still in some flux. As an example, the remit for the new 3 star is (now) quantitatively specified for wind, with some reference to waves as well. I pulled all the requirements and guidance for coaches for both the September 2007 release and the January 2008 update, and I am sure enough to put money on it that the remit conditions were not so distinctly specified in that material.
Oh No! . .no fun
Drats, no more fun. The water temp is still a balmy 58 degrees in the bay, a good day for a few figure eights and a swim! No BCU’s in sight today, only a few gulls!
Thanks for your common sense reply
and I agree completely with your “number 1 option” although I don’t understand how that guy was let in to start with.
jackL
Another classic jackl response…nm
reverse 8’s are a great thing to
practice and master. You’re doing edging in reverse and it messes with your mind until you practice enough. Very valuable skills come from it that I use all the time, now that I have them. Thrown in reverse stern rudders, etc. and practice that. There’s probably not any kayaking skill that anyone should say there’s no use for unless your just sticking your head in the water (sand). Everything you do on the water builds balance, skill, proficiency…
Actually…
…those holding the “old” 4* award can take 5* training and assessment until 2011. After that, the “new” 4* award is necessary. Since the “new” 4* is far more comprehensive and, in my opinion, a better way of assessing skills and leadership, some of us may take it before our 4* badge “expires”.
I’ve done the in-class navigation course. As we did it on shore and with a L5 coach from England supervising, I think on land is probably the way it’s supposed to be done. Does this make sense? Not really, but the course was worthwhile and would be a benefit as long as you use it when you paddle.
As for the 2* before the “new” 3* – Celia is right.
Better to start implementing the new way now – as a friend of ours found out when he did the 2* and 3* in two consecutive days and passed – and minimize the already extensive confusion.
BTW, if you’re a L2 coach, you also have to do the 2* canoe at some point as canoes are in the 2* assessment. I know this for a fact.
A few clarifications
"old" star awards will always be recognized.
Prerequisites of new or developing courses may not automatically recognize “old” star awards (in particular, coaching courses), BUT, the new system includes “APEL”- Accredited Prior Experience or Learning. It is not easy (as it should be!), but if one feels they have the necessary experience to skip certain prerequisites, there is a process. I know of one person who is traveling to GB this Oct to pursue Coach 3 assessments in both sea and whitewater, who did not possess the formal “old” training, and was given permission based on his resume.
It is not, repeat, not, an absolute prereq’ to have a 2* before pursuing 3*. The new 2* is intended not to be discipline specific, but to reflect a broad foundation in understanding boat control outside of one discipline. For those not understanding, one intent is to create beginning paddlers who are not so narrow in their views, indeed, to create opportunity.
For the new 3* sea, one prereq’ is that one must demonstrate experience in another paddlesport discipline (“one session,of 3 hours duration”). This can be done by providing the assessor with a personal logbook, or by physical demonstration, or, least preferable, by questioning. There is a qualifying note for all assessors, that if a candidate has skipped a prior level, a cross section of an earlier assessment can be included- at the assessors discretion. For some assessors, this could be a big deal, for others, not so much. But if one wants to enter the BCU coaching track, and is skipping earlier star assessments, be aware! You will be held to a more rigid interpretation. For example, one can enter the new Level 1 coaching course with a “new” 2*, or they must have the old 2* kayak AND the old 2* canoe. Since the new 3* is discipline specific, it cannot be used alone for a prereq for the Level 1 coach course.
For the new 4*, the old 4* or new 3* is a prerequisite, and with good reason. This is no longer about personal performance in the conditions, it is about leadership. If I have to coach someone on personal skill during the new 4* training, this tells me they are not ready. It is about seamanship, risk management, and group management.
The new Coastal Nav/Tidal Currents class (this, or it’s equivalent, is required for the new 4* sea assessment), is clearly stated as a classroom course in the syllabus. Fantastic class, BTW, especially given Salty’s recent rant (thanks, Salty, for trying to put “seamanship” into “sea” kayakers lexicon!)about COLREGS. I taught one recently, and let me tell you, even though it was an 8hour class, no one was bored!
One observation I have, is that some complaint about the “new” vs “old” system applicability to sea kayakers is sort of missing the point. The BCU coaching scheme is about paddle sport, not just sea kayaking. In particular, and again, IMO, some of the most egregious opinions some have on this board stem from limited knowledge. “If all one has is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail”. The possibilities for personal improvement through exploring different disciplines is limitless- the converse…not so much.
BTW, the “infamous” reputation of the backwards figure 8 among (amongst?) sea kayakers becomes silly, once one understands control in reverse of a solo canoe.
Karl
3* prereqs, etc
Karl said:
For the new 3* sea, one prereq’ is that one must
demonstrate experience in another paddlesport
discipline (“one session,of 3 hours duration”). This
can be done by providing the assessor with a personal
logbook, or by physical demonstration, or, least
preferable, by questioning.
Well, that makes sense, and jibes with what Celia said.
I feel an urge to hunker down and let this storm of small numerals and asterisks pass before attempting the BCU waters again. I do know that the old L2 coach cert just sank to the value of the paper it is written on.
Nav and Tidal Currents Course
– Last Updated: Sep-16-08 10:53 PM EST –
Was all classroom when I just did it, though one of the instructors did say later that he wished there was time to put some hands-on stuff into it. But there really isn't, as far as I can see. It is a pretty comprehensive course, talks a good bit about weather patterns and has a class exercise at the end that can demand a lot of consideration and knowledge about the effect of tidal currents on paddlers to avoid being caught out.
You do have to learn a little about how various situations are handled and how to call for help in the UK, and they do use the Beauford scale which you hear less of on this side of the pond. But it is a great course - a number of people who took it were not really thinking about 4 star prep, just wanted to learn how to be better in this area.
By the way, both of us who attempted the new 3 star sea recently have done some WW training etc in he lats couple of summers, so that stood for the cross training requirement for our purposes. We didn't have paper, but it is possible that showing up with WW boats in Vermont last summer to take a WW course from one of the RCO's in North America helped. The course was cancelled due to lack of enough water, but the boats were quite believable.
what’s an RCO?
what does ‘remit’ mean?
I am glad you consider my responses
– Last Updated: Sep-17-08 6:13 AM EST –
to be "classics"
It's obvious that you are a newbie here.
Most of the better paddlers some of who are good friends, just ignore my ramblings.
Many thanks and
Cheers,
JackL
RCO and remit
RCO is regional coach officer - coach in charge of coaches essentially. You can see who they are for North America at BCUNA.
You weighed in on an earlier thread with some cursory (and not complimentary sounding) remarks about the use of remit in the BCU scheme of assessments. You may want to refer to that thread. (I also seem to recall that you did participate in an assessment way back.)