Thoughts on sit on top sea kayaks

Advice
#29

@Sincress said:

@Overstreet said:
My Ocean Kayak has scuppers that are just holes through the hull. I get a splashed butt on forward paddle “surges”. Epics have venturi bailers.

What are venturi bailers? How wet do simple scuppers get you? I was under the impression that you wont have water coming up the scupper holes until you have water splashing over the bow/sides at which point it doesnt matter anyway

“Bailers” are found in more expensive boats than most SOTs. If you are a light weight you won’t have scupper problems. If you are a Lilly Dipper you won’t have water up the scuppers.

If you’re a heavy strong paddler your boat sits lower. Your strong strokes will push water up the scuppers.

Kayaking is a wet sport. Don’t think you will stay dry. Unwritten law is that People that try and get in the boat without getting their feet wet often end up falling in and getting everything wet.

#30

@Overstreet said:
Kayaking is a wet sport. Don’t think you will stay dry. Unwritten law is that People that try and get in the boat without getting their feet wet often end up falling in and getting everything wet.

Well I personally don’t mind getting my feet wet but do mind sitting in a pool of water for several hours. Which is why I ask. Most kayaks have some kind of a raised seat and thus at least you’re not swimming. If you have similar freeboard in a sit inside and a sit on top which gets a ton of water through the scupper holes, you’re better off with a sit inside.

#31

I am not a real fan of SOT kayaks, especially the plastic kind. I like a boat that can get out of its own way and most plastic boats aren’t really capable of it. There are a lot of entry level surfskis out there. Fenn has a couple, Nelo, Think, Epic and a few others have them too. They would work much better as a sea kayak because they are capable of covering a lot more ground than most SOTs.

#32

This explains how scuppers can be made to keep the cockpit dry–these are surfski features, and so engineered to reduce the boat’s speed as little as possible while doing their job.

The Bernoulli effect is also mentioned sometimes. These are passive systems, as compared to the one-way scupper plugs which contain ball-float stoppers.

https://www.surfski.info/tips/story/1056/“hydrodynamic-aspects-of-surfski-drain-scuppers”-or-“the-science-behind-the-bullets”.html

The Hurricane Skimmer uses a backward-facing step configuration, on the front scupper, at least. I can’t guess why they didn’t do the same with the rear one. You can see it clearly in this video at about 1:45:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLxMV9fc3r8

The scuppers on my Perception Tribe 11.5 are neutral; they behave the same regardless of the boat’s direction of travel. They constantly make percolating noises.

The ones on the old Ocean Kayak Scrambler I had were forward-active, although they never completely drained the footwell, they worked quite effectively at even slow forward speeds, and if I paddled backwards they would flood the cockpit.

#33

@greyheron very interesting, I haven’t considered how the shape and direction of scupper holes impacts their behavior. Pretty nice boat in the review, shame we don’t get any of those in (this part of) Europe. No WS or Perception boats, no Eddylines either.

If I ever get a SOT my best bet is a plain basic Pelican Sentinel 100X which will be plenty enough for daytrips and swimming. That said, I think I’m still going for a sit in as my first (and only) rigid kayak.

#34

@string said:
A friend just bought a used tandem SOT that has windscreens in front of each seat. Don’t know the name but it has a sleek hull and was made in Europe. And it’s fast!

@Sincress said:
That’s very intriguing, I’d love to know the model. Has anyone tried adding a deck onto a SOT? Just curiousity.

@Sincress. Back in the late 1990’s, Ocean Kayak had 2 hybrid SOT/SINK convertible models: the Manta 16 and the Dawn Trakker. Both were SOT’s that had a hard cockpit cover (picture a rigid hard plastic spray skirt) that you could add to the kayak to make it a “SINK” -

#35

@sully505 said:
@Sincress. Back in the late 1990’s, Ocean Kayak had 2 hybrid SOT/SINK convertible models: the Manta 16 and the Dawn Trakker. Both were SOT’s that had a hard cockpit cover (picture a rigid hard plastic spray skirt) that you could add to the kayak to make it a “SINK” -

Googled these two, haven’t found much on the Manta 16 but I absolutely love the Dawn Trekker! Looks amazing, a shame they dont make them anymore, I’d love to have one.

#36

I’ve owned two SOT’s, one for touring and one for fishing. My Cobra Expedition was fast and paddled straight. It had 5 hatches and weighed around 50 pounds. It was a great sea kayak for what it was. Yes, it was wet, but my gear stayed dry. I could paddle all day and keep up with other sea kayaks. It was as long and narrow as any SInK.

My Eddyline Caribbean is short and stout. I use it for fishing. However, it handles waves and wind just fine. I don’t consider it a sea kayak, not because it’s a SOT, but because it’s designed for fishing. Both do what they’re meant to do.

#37

Yes this topic has been discussed to death the last 19 or so years I have been visiting Pnet. You will find a lot people posting truisms about SOTs ; usually these people have only paddled wide fishing style or barge SOTs. Around about 2000 there were several companies in the US that sold very sleek and seaworthy SOTs, some of them made of composites and they were quite light. These companies have slowly been consumed by big sporting good conglomerates that now mostly market to the wider market of people who don’t have skills and don’t paddle on moving water. Surf skis are certainly closely related to SOTs and most folks I know who were into fast hull SOTs for ocean paddling are now into surf skis. The line about SOTs not really being practical for real conditions is bunk. In the early 2000s I used to do coastal paddles with seakayaks in club paddles about half the time in a SINK and half in my old Heritage Seadart, I ended up rescuing SINK paddlers many many times who could not handle breaking coastal waves, The lowly Ocean Kayak Scrambler mentioned above is actually a very seaworthy boat and we have surfed it in huge violent surf in Baja with violent haystacks and rebounding waves from cliffs… I surf waveskis which are the ultimate paddle surf tool, and they are just very well designed SOT boats based on surfboards. The main advantage of seakayks is the low profile for paddling in winds, and keeping your gear semi-dry. The main advantage of SOTs is the ability to self rescue instantly in the event of a capsize, without having to pump out the boat. In my opinion if you paddle alone on the ocean, you should do it in a good seaworthy SOT. Sure it’s possible to re-enter and roll a seakayak, but I suspect of the people I know on Pnet, only a handful can pull this off in bad conditions.

1 Like
#38

@SeaDart said:
Yes this topic has been discussed to death the last 19 or so years I have been visiting Pnet. You will find a lot people posting truisms about SOTs ; usually these people have only paddled wide fishing style or barge SOTs. Around about 2000 there were several companies in the US that sold very sleek and seaworthy SOTs, some of them made of composites and they were quite light. These companies have slowly been consumed by big sporting good conglomerates that now mostly market to the wider market of people who don’t have skills and don’t paddle on moving water. Surf skis are certainly closely related to SOTs and most folks I know who were into fast hull SOTs for ocean paddling are now into surf skis. The line about SOTs not really being practical for real conditions is bunk. In the early 2000s I used to do coastal paddles with seakayaks in club paddles about half the time in a SINK and half in my old Heritage Seadart, I ended up rescuing SINK paddlers many many times who could not handle breaking coastal waves, The lowly Ocean Kayak Scrambler mentioned above is actually a very seaworthy boat and we have surfed it in huge violent surf in Baja with violent haystacks and rebounding waves from cliffs… I surf waveskis which are the ultimate paddle surf tool, and they are just very well designed SOT boats based on surfboards. The main advantage of seakayks is the low profile for paddling in winds, and keeping your gear semi-dry. The main advantage of SOTs is the ability to self rescue instantly in the event of a capsize, without having to pump out the boat. In my opinion if you paddle alone on the ocean, you should do it in a good seaworthy SOT. Sure it’s possible to re-enter and roll a seakayak, but I suspect of the people I know on Pnet, only a handful can pull this off in bad conditions.

Amen!

#39

@greyheron The difference in weight between the RTM Disco and the Tarpon 140 is likely due to the difference in dimensions, not material. The Disco is 1.5 inches less in width and an inch less in depth than the Tarpon.

#40

The idea that all sit on tops are the same, with the same characteristics is astounding. Open decked sea kayaks exist. This. https://www.mirageseakayaks.com.au/mirage-583-adventure

#41

To me , comparing the 140 to the Disco, the 140 is like a stock race car and the Disco is a sports car. My friend’s Disco can certainly pace my Tarpon 160.

#42

@currion said:
The idea that all sit on tops are the same, with the same characteristics is astounding. Open decked sea kayaks exist. This. https://www.mirageseakayaks.com.au/mirage-583-adventure

Now that looks like a very cool boat that I would love to try out, although $4k is a bit out of my boat budget!

#43

@Sincress
You have been offered a pretty good debate above about various takes on SOTs.

But l just scrolled thru all of this and hit your comment about not wanting a wet butt. IMO unless you invest in drywear your posterior will experience some wetness. I don’t care whether you are in a SOT or a SINK. By the time you actually get into or onto the boat some amount of water has come with you. The only people l know of who can avoid that are those who paddle with a partner kind enough to pull them into the water after they have boarded from a dry end of the kayak.

I personally wouldn’t have the guff to ask anyone to do that for me even if others were around. Like you would be, l paddle solo. Wetness ensues somewhere in the process of getting on the water.

#44

@Celia said:
@Sincress
You have been offered a pretty good debate above about various takes on SOTs.

But l just scrolled thru all of this and hit your comment about not wanting a wet butt. IMO unless you invest in drywear your posterior will experience some wetness. I don’t care whether you are in a SOT or a SINK. By the time you actually get into or onto the boat some amount of water has come with you. The only people l know of who can avoid that are those who paddle with a partner kind enough to pull them into the water after they have boarded from a dry end of the kayak.

I personally wouldn’t have the guff to ask anyone to do that for me even if others were around. Like you would be, l paddle solo. Wetness ensues somewhere in the process of getting on the water.

Well, In the previous 8 months I’ve successfully prevented my butt from getting wet on most of my 57 journeys. Both of my inflatables have raised seats so no water gets anywhere near, unless you enter the kayak wet. And if you let your legs dry out on the foredeck for a few minutes, you can even not get any water on the floor. Wow. Is it really such a tall order?

#45

@Sincress said:
Well, In the previous 8 months I’ve successfully prevented my butt from getting wet on most of my 57 journeys. Both of my inflatables have raised seats so no water gets anywhere near, unless you enter the kayak wet. And if you let your legs dry out on the foredeck for a few minutes, you can even not get any water on the floor. Wow. Is it really such a tall order?

No wet butt = NO FUN!
If you are ever in San Diego, I’ll take you out for a little adventure. Your butt won’t stay dry 15 seconds.

Honestly Kayaking is a water sport. You might as well stay home drinking beer in front of the TV if yo are not getting wet.

#46

@SeaDart said:
No wet butt = NO FUN!
If you are ever in San Diego, I’ll take you out for a little adventure. Your butt won’t stay dry 15 seconds.

Honestly Kayaking is a water sport. You might as well stay home drinking beer in front of the TV if yo are not getting wet.

To each his own - but I prefer swimming and diving if I wish to be wet!
Thanks for the offer, but I doubt I’ll be visiting San Diego soon, I’m literally on the opposite side of Earth :slight_smile:

#47

If you are staying dry you are not in the conditions many of us find more fun. Each to their own but…

#48

@Sincress – The people who make this say it’s dry … they might be right; it’s pretty high above the water …

http://wavewalk.com/blog/

There’s a definite advantage here (to my mind) in being able to easily change position for comfort. That’s one of the main reasons I pull over and get out: to walk around. Though I’d have to put a cushion on that lengthwise saddle. I don’t like the protruding shapes on the seat of the W700. My luck, some tender part of me would be bumping or scraping those just about the time I found the fore-aft sweet spot for trim.

I’m pretty sure it would be fast, too, even the W500 model. Reason for that is that I designed something like it: a 10 foot pontoon boat to fit in my pickup. Mine had watertight pontoons and was a lot wider, but I built a one-quarter-scale model of it and bathtub tested it. My scaled-down person-weight could be placed on the far end of a pontoon and the thing stayed reasonably flat, and I was using pretty similar dimensions and shape. I think mine were a little fuller in the ends.

If this does manage to get knocked over, it’s pretty likely that only one side of it will take on water. You could still climb aboard, and if you have a bilge pump, you’re all good.

Yeah, wind is going to work on it, but they make the point that you can shift your weight fore and aft and trim the boat to self-correct.

You need a loooong paddle–don’t worry, they’ll sell you one. Lot of spendy here.

Can you turn it? Who cares? It’s double-ended. Just swing your legs over and reverse course.

But get this: the W700 model, under a 200 lb load (that’s more than I weigh), draws two and a half inches of water. And you can stand with both feet on the same side and it only heels a little bit.

I’ll be looking for some kind of bad review on these, but haven’t found one yet.

You can name it “TallYak”.