I am off the same sentiment. In addition to WW “park and play”, surfing with waveskis is a form of “park and play”. These crafts and related venues can be more challenging than longboats and thus a good skills development activities for longboating. Of the paddling I do, I think point A to B longboating is the most staid. The exception right now is the surf ski. The more rounded surfski hull is tippier and I can’t roll with that darn thing like I can with all my other crafts.
PS. I think there are myraid factors for the decline of longboarding in the US (I think other countries have a thriving longboat scene, e.g.GB, Australia, South Africa). For young athletes, one possible negative factor is the apparent “dullness” of longboating compared to WW. Think how “traditional” downhill skiing has steadily loss appeal compared to snowboarding. The latter just seems more cool and atheletically more challenging to upcoming downhill crowd. A wrinkle may be the resurgence of “telemarking”, but this too seems cool and challenging as its practitioners take “old style” (but with technological improvement) equipment to take on downhill mogul fields. I actuallly think longboarding might be able to make an impression with younger paddlers with more athletic competitions like the Hobuck Hoedown.
I also picked up an Ellesmere last fall for $100 after selling an Anas Acuta for $1,100, and buying the Ellesmere for $1,200. With deals like that out there, why would I buy new?
I still like surfing flat waves in long boats. It’s about the only trick I have left. We should give credit where credit is due. The short ww boat evolved from Vladimir Vanha. I met him a couple of times below the tubes on the gauley. He was a character. Noah boat works never took off but he was so innovative. By far the most fascinating river character I’ve ever met.
I dont’ think anything’s wrong with park-and-play. What I object to is when almost every boater jumps on a new bandwagon and instantly forgets other equally fun ways of doing things—which is boosted by the manufacturers, who also jump on the bandwagon and stop making other kinds of boats in favor of the new fad. You’re right that the clorox bottles can do things a long boat can’t, but the opposite is also true. Playboats can’t attain rapids at all (no hull speed), they’re slow (unless spinning or doing somersaults), and they can’t surf the fastest, flattest waves.
Check this video out (this is what I did for years)—there’s no boat on earth that can slice and dice a rapid better and faster than a 22-pound, 12-foot-long slalom C-1:
I’m fine with playboating—but I can’t tell you how many playboaters I’ve met on the river who looked at my boat and said “What is THAT?!?!” This is what happens when people jump on bandwagons and forget everything else, and in my opinion, that’s bad.
I am of the same sentiment. In addition to WW “park and play”, surfing with waveskis is a form of “park and play”. These crafts and related venues can be more challenging than longboats and thus a good skills development activities for longboating. Of the paddling I do, I think point A to B longboating is the most staid.
No offense sing, but you need to watch some whitewater slalom racing (see video above). This is my point exactly: there exists a form of longboat whitewater paddling that is faster than any other known form of whitewater boating, more dynamic, and anything but “staid.” The performance of these boats annihilates any other boat—and this is not some rare, unattainable thing for most paddlers. If you can throw ends in a hole all day you can do this too. The problem is nobody knows about it, because everyone just follows the herd.
I’ve never been against short boats—I’ve been against the mentality that somehow short boats are a “forward evolution” (e.g. better) in kayaking. They aren’t; they’re a lateral evolution. Both are equally demanding, challenging, and rewarding.
Sorry for derailing the convo talking about whitewater paddling, LOL. But my bigger point here is that long boats (whether touring sea kayaks or long whitewater boats or long SUPs) offer every bit as much challenge and entertainment as shorter ones…and they’re capable of paddling a broader range of conditions than short boats—from calm ponds to 30-knot winds and big waves in the ocean.
Yes, I understand that not everyone wants to paddle in the ocean. That’s fine. But arguments like that tend to assume that everyone is static—people like what they like and nobody ever wants to change, to try new things.
You can’t try new things if you don’t see new things…and if manufacturers make fewer long kayaks every year…the chances of people seeing it are diminished, and something is lost.
Kinda like good, older 35mm cameras. People that have them (Nikon, Pentax, etc) tend to take care of them. Eventually, they become available on the used market, but prices are low because more buyers will trade some quality for convenience and portability.
I do agree. I have multiple 35 mm bodies and lenses as well as twin lense Mamiya cameras. I also worked with 4x5 cameras with swing and tilts. I resisted digital until I saw that the format has greater latitude between highlight and shadow detail. Silver film has its place in art, but . . . ?
I have a gut feeling, a notion, but I believe the lack of 16 to ,18 foot long American made kayak is more a result of factories being inconvenienced due to limits on shipping and also in handling.
The fact is that shorter kayaks outsell long ones, but that may be only partly due to the true desire of the market.
I expect it’s because of far more limited supply. If someone wants to buy a kayak and their choice is to get a 14 foot or shorter kayak, or pay for one made overseas, including the cost to transportation, in 95 out of 100 cases the buyer will feel forced to buy the short kayak.
I expect it’s parallel to buying a Chinese made phone of coffee maker. 100% of the US sales are for Chinese coffee makers and telephones and that PROVES American only want to buy Chinese products! ----- Right ???
Or could it only prove that have no other choice?
I am of the belief the main reason most Americans buy shorter kayaks today may be based in the fact that for the price point involved, there are very few other choices.
We still have the WS Tempest.
But that may be the only one in the price range today unless you get an import.
Anyone else know of anything in the 16 to 18 foot range of touring kayak, made in the USA, for $3000 or less still being made today?
I’d love to dig into this—got a copy of the full report? The OIA keeps it under lockdown unless you’re an OIA member. (Frustrating!) They won’t even let you view the executive summary unless you work for a company…
This; most kayak paddlers are rec boat paddlers, and they’re happy to do so. Why pay the price, and deal with storage and hauling of the longer boat when they don’t need it?
In the bike world most purchases are simple “rec” bikes and now electric bikes, however there is still a significant group that buy the high end mountain bikes and road bikes many of whom don’t need the capabilities of the bikes they bought. They would probably be better off spending less and getting a bike better suited for their riding style and skill.
@szihn - I hadn’t thought about shipping costs and availability, but you’re right, that could be affecting people’s purchase decisions. That said, as we’ve discussed above, there are tons of nice, older long touring kayaks on the used market—most of which can be bought for a few hundred dollars. And most of those boats are still perfectly good. Touring kayaks (at least the ones that aren’t abused) have a pretty long lifespan.
As for the cost of touring kayaks, Wilderness Systems makes 4 long touring kayak models (16-17 foot Tempests and 16-17 foot Tsunamis), all for $2500 or less brand-new. And those are excellent boats. People have paddled 750 miles of the Inside Passage in them and had zero issues.
There might be some other long plastic boats out there for under $3,000. Now if you’re strictly talking composite boats, then no—all the glass touring boats are gonna be well over $3K. But people don’t need a glass boat when those $2500 Wilderness System boats exist. (Even the weights aren’t that different, typically less than a 10lb weight difference—unless you’re talking about “Extreme Gucci” composite boats that are 17’ and weigh 35lbs…but those shouldn’t even be part of the discussion! LOL
Very good. I was under the impression the Tsunami had been dropped for lengths over 14.5. I just looked and they have the bigger ones listed still.
And I also know of a few custom and semi-custom composite kayaks still made in 16.5 to 18 foot lengths, but they cost as much and in some cases MORE then an imported kayak and that includes the shipping costs. One example is Lincoln. I was giving very serious thought to buying a Lincoln but I bought 2 Rebels instead because the cost of the UP-GRADED Rebels including tariff, duties AND transportation from Poland to Canada to Wyoming was LESS then the cost of a Lincoln including it’s delivery, and not just a small amount either.
I will probably buy 1 more Rebel too, and I gave up on Lincoln for 1 reason only, Cost!
But back to good plastic kayaks:
They are going to own the lions share of the coming market, and kayaks like the Tsunami and the Tempest are perfect examples. Eddyline dropped it’s Fathom. Old Town no longer offers the better models of the Necky line. Hurricane dropped the Tracer years ago. And to the best of my knowledge no one is picking up the slack.
I am keeping my Necky Chatham17 and I can’t see any real possibility of me ever selling it until such time I can’t use any kayak. it’s just been too good for me in the years I have had it and I love the idea of keeping one Poly kayak because there are trips where the super durable nature of roto-molded kayaks are a feature that is more important then the lighter weights and stiffer hulls of the composites kayaks.
If anyone is interested I do have 2 kayaks to sell now.
A Perception Sea Lion Shadow 16.5 foot X 24 inch with new hatch gaskets, new deck rigging, Sea-Lect rudder foot controllers and new Seals spray skirt. It’s best for paddlers with leg inseams lengths of 31" or less, and body weights of 220 or less. DSCN5000 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
And an Eddyline Fathom that was cracked and repaired to a condition stronger then new, but with the repairs not hidden. YNP 3 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
I have used both in some long trips and in some very rough conditions and I have no complaints at all. But now I have a Rebel Jara which does the job of theses 2 kayaks so because I want to use them more then i want to collect them, I will sell these 2 old friends. I have a good kayak shed, but I can’t see a reason to fill it up with kayaks I am not likely to use much in the future.
I actually preferred my 145 Tsunsmi over the 175. I switched to the 175 to try to catch up to Craig_S and enjoy the adventures of Shadepine. I hat carrying the 175, but it is more fun. It’s important to realize a long boat isn’t faster, butbit alloes you to reach higher speeds. If you can’t exceed 3.5 mph iavg speed n a 14 ft kayak, you probably won’t hit 3.6 mph avg in a 17 ft boat.
I think of kayak hulls like I would aircraft bodies and air frames. One can move through air with less resistance than some others but unless there is more power the slicker aircraft may not be faster at all. The old P51 Mustang is an ideal example. With the 1st engines made by Allison the Mustang was ok, but not any better then it’s opponents. But when the Rolls/Merlin was put into it the airframe and body design allowed the fighter to dominate it’s opponents.
So buying a 17 to 18 foot kayak will allow the KAYAK to go faster, but if the longer heavier craft has more weight or drag then the “ENGINE” can propel faster, it’s not going to be faster for that “engine” (the man or woman paddling it)
So going longer is not the answer to all paddlers. When you max out a given persons power-to-drag ratio, you’ve maxed it out.
You can’t buy something to go faster then the max a person can do ---- unless it’s a larger powerplant. (like a gas engine) But many could go faster by improving the use of the power they have if they are interested in such gains. If not, no harm done either.
The fastest kayaks are fastest because they have the strongest and most proficient paddlers.
But that still only part of the picture.
Objective, called “mission statement” is far more important.
If someone is a fisherman, surfer, back-country traveler, trapper, photographer, hunter, or “floating book reader” all the design features made to give more speed are 100% irrelevant.
“What is this for” is the 1st question that should be asked.
Once answered the selection of a proper kayak for that individual is easier to answer. I have several and I like it that way. From my 10.5 foot long X 31 inch wide Loon, to my 17’ 10" long X20.47 inch wide Jara, I use different kayaks for different trips. I love them all. But I don’t take my WW kayak on long camping trips, or try to paddle 25 mile legs in my Loon. I match the kayak to the trip. The areas of “overlap” in the differing kayak’s capabilities are the stuff of debate, calculations, comparisons, arguments and discussions.
It still blows my mind that (as you say) the 14-foot Tsunami is as fast as the 16/17 footers. Not saying I don’t believe you…just that my experience has always been: longer = faster. (Unless you’re just insanely strong and can paddle a short boat at a crazy-fast cadence). But I’ve never paddled a 14-foot Tsunami (or any other 14 foot touring kayak).
I don’t have detailed tests to point to, but I’m certain my 16’9" Eddyline Raven (thermoformed) is faster than either my Tempest 170 or my Tsunami 165…which I chalk up to having a smoother, more rigid hull and a sharper entry at the front. I could average 5.2mph (over 3-4 miles) in the Raven without pushing very hard (maybe an 80-85% effort)…whereas in the Tsunami I’d have to push hard (e.g. 90-95% effort) to average 5.2mph (neither in dead-calm water, by the way).
Rad mentioned the Eddyline Fathom—I ran into a guy with one the other day at the lake where I paddle. He let me sit in his (in the grass) and wow! It was incredibly comfortable! Like the most comfortable kayak I’ve ever sat in! (for larger paddlers—I’m 5’10" and 210lbs). If I could find someone who would trade me a Fathom for my Raven, I’d do it! (The Raven is a lower-volume boat, so the fit is definitely more snug.) The Fathom’s fit was equal to (or even better) than the big Tsunamis.
Unpopular opinion: Paddling is in decline. Average age is getting older. Plenty of awesome used kayaks available.
Newbies don’t want to pay the price of longer kayaks. Older folks want lighter kayaks that they can easily lift or “roll up on” their vehicles.
Fewer people are into performance kayaking. Those who are, have plenty of used options available due to the past few years of saturation from Chinese surfski manufacturers.
Older people (myself included!) have assembled boat collections over the years that we are now trying to downsize because we realize we only need a few boats to cover our current basic paddling needs.
The price (driven by manufacturers’ costs) of new boats has also become absurd, so it is the perfect storm of people buying boats that will get the job done vs. boats that deliver performance. Preferably used, or as cheap as possible if new.
The OIA keeps it under lockdown unless you’re an OIA member. (Frustrating!) They won’t even let you view the executive summary unless you work for a company…
