I think a discussion of design evolution of sea kayaks as compared to whitewater boats deserves its own thread.
Salty had noted the contrast some time ago. I've become more keenly aware of the extraordinary different rate of change since actually paddling ww boats and starting whitewater.
My I3 is in no recognizable way related in design to the Pirouette I sold or even friends' RPMs. However my oldest design sea kayak (Romany 1993) and my most recently designed sea kayak (Nordkapp LV 2006) both evidence close relationship to the Pintail.
Design I don’t have cross-profile section of the Romany, so I can’t compare the Xcite to the Romany, but the Xplore and the Explorer are somewhat close - with overlapping lines stern, less so forward. The Xcite show much more vertical sides like a Nordkapp LV. The deck designs are much different though.
It’d call it a slight refinement of the Explorer with the Xplore, and probable slightly more of refinements with the Xcite.
My friend who paddled the Xcite raves about the footbraces. He wants to retrofit his Explorer with them if a kit is available. I’d like to try them.
My understanding is that the Tiderace boats are refined versions of the Rockpool boats. The below links are the most thorough information I've encountered comparing these boats to other Brit boats
I think the Rockpool foot plate looks great and would save many of us from cutting tons of foam for our forward bulkheads. It is pretty much what many ww boats have had for a long time.
here is some shaping info: corran addison goes abotu making a mold for his new boat…4 posts about it…really neat stuff! http://www.2imagine.net/news.html called the Huracan
Nice corgimas I think some may not understand the difference between a “plug” and a prototype. The “plug” is the actual model of the boat. This is either shaped in foam by hand, CNC cut, or lofted and created with strip over sections. Most modern plugs are created in foam whether CNC cut or hand shaped. The beauty of foam is the huge range of options the designer has. He/she can remove material, or add very easily.
For example, maybe the designer wants to pull the chine in a bit, tweak the rocker, bow etc., based on testing. This is easily accomplished with foam.
Prototypes are created from temporary molds taken from a plug. You can see the team in the Dagger shot making what appears to be a temporary mold / tool from their plug. These tools are used to create composite, or rotational molded proto’s.
Tweaks based on testing happen to the plug, which then new temp molds are created, and the process continues.
When the design team is happy the plug is finally refined, deck fittings placed, cockpit coaming placed / refined, final finish and buff, and sent off to tool making. If poly, the plug goes to a foundry for a cast aluminum or nickle tool to be made from it. That is what your poly boat gets cooked in.
If composite, the plug goes to composite tooling, where a very thick, nice, perfect composite tool is made for the deck and hull. If infusion is the process of choice the tool will get wide flanges.
The plugs are returned and stored for future reference or tooling needs.
Absolutely not accurate I paddle prototypes all the time. That may be true with some older designs, but is just completely innaccurate of modern kayak design in this country.
It’s just amazing to read some of this stuff. I personally paddle two test boats which are variations of what are now commercially made kayaks.
I mean no disrespect Jay, but as someone who has been heavily involved in testing kayaks I could not disagree more with what you have said.
Prototypes get destroyed by manufacturers for liability reasons, or warehoused for future reference. As Flatpick will tell you, most would not be considered safe for long term paddling! If ever out my way I’ll show you dozens!
Well, then you scale back… … and sell strip built kayaks - or just the plans for wood strip versions - or both. Over time, the design may catch on get enough of a following that an exiting manufacturer with existing production and distribution capabilities picks up the design to add to their line up…
- (and well done there too Jay!)
PS - for most, the $30K is prohibitive anyway. I I had $30K to do a kayak, I’d do paddles! If trying to do a composite kayak on that budget, I’d spend the first few thousand on several prototypes made by my own hand (strip/foam/mix/whatever), involve others in the testing, and when it’s what it’s supposed to be I’d then get the lines into 3D myself (if ultimately needed or not to build - still handy to have). Then another $5k or so traveling to study and set up outsourcing arrangements (not necessarily offshore) for production (making a strip plug myself if need be - heck got 3D data, forms and strips left from above…). The remainder hopefully enough to cover mold development and first parts (maybe weaseling some partnering/breaks on terms initially), and begin shoestring marketing efforts. From there. the kayaks get done on a build to order basis and sold direct ala QCC (shipping from maker iof domestic/NA - or from my own storage setup if made offshore).
It would need to be a niche boat, that can be marketed largely by WOM - but with potential for at least 50, and more like 100 sold over a 2-3 period to bother (as a side job!), unless truly a labor of love where breaking even is OK (I wonder how may Impex OI’s have sold so far…), but that’s just me - and others would have different cutoffs. That’s also thinking small. My numbers would change radically if thinking bigger, trying to launch a company to sustain myself and others, etc…
But then again, I don’t think about this sort of thing much.
PSS - Someone run the numbers on a rorotmold and let folks see what it takes to get them their “cheap” kayaks!!
how about producing just one boat? The shaneslogic blog that corgimas posted refers to a minimal foam-and-glass process that one can use to create a boat for oneself. Any idea how much that would cost in consumables/disposables, durable equipment, and time?
I’m dreaming of building, and I need somebody to stop me before I do something stupid.
Come with a skeg? Didn’t see any mention of a drop down skeg in the descriptions and didn’t see any knob on the deck. Maybe the photos are prototypes and not fully finished production items?
From smaller model/prototype work I can tell you some of the better shaping foams are not cheap. Others can give numbers and specific type/density recommendations. The rest also depends on what you buy/what sort of layup. Read the blogs and such online with people building this way, and see what mention is made of materials/sources, email them, etc.
I've seen people do it with really poor materials (like home isulation foam sheets) and get a somewhat OK result too, depending on your needs and wants. Can be pretty cheap.
I have thoughts for a one-off myself (not likely to be much demand for this one beyond me), but it's a long boat that would make more sense to strip. Easy to find material price info and tons of tips for those. All I need are space, time and money!
Cnc Fore research the designer make some plain prototypes.
If the boat type is common to you, you probably don’t have to make any prototypes. But if it is a new type of boat some prototyping can be a good thing.
When we make a commercial kayak we make a first prototype made out of plain moulds just so we can check that deck layout is Ok and nothing misfits. Some times we make smaller changes. So far we has not made any changes of deck or hull. When you design your boats with computer you can do a lot of testing direct in the computer.
If you do all your designing by hand the only way you can test is to make live sized models
To day you can buy cnc-machined plugs direct from companies like this
The time required to make a cnc-machined plug is a fraction if you compare it with hand shaping. Also the precision is great. Best is if you can make the models as completed as possible if you have to make extra work by hand it quickly becomes expensive.
- (and well done there too Jay!)