JackL’s “experience” vs wisdom
…“experience” tells him he doesn’t need tie downs because he never lost a boat. “Wisdom” should tell you (and JackL) to use the tie downs because others have lost their boats and/or racks and caused damage, injury or worse.
another solution
drive 45
Experience with saddles
– Last Updated: Feb-15-11 8:52 AM EST –
We found that our long boats tended to move around more after being buffeted by wind at highway speeds than with our original stackers to which we have returned. The value of a front tie down is that, at least for a longer boat, you can see that things are moving around before it gets to a critical point. You can hook it to bumpers for the front hood - it doesn't have to go under the bumper and it may be safer anyway. At that length the line isn't as likely to get caught in the wheel if it comes loose.
We tend to only use stern tie downs for the canoe. You can always run extra straps or ropes creatively if you are unsure of your security in the rear. There is less early feedback on what is going on back there usually, unless you are driving a truck. It's most likely you'll see a problem in its early stages from the front.
Most states require that a red flag be on the rear of anything that overhangs the end of your vehicle by 3 feet or more. Even if your state doesn't require it, this is a prudent measure so that you can see where your boat ends when it comes to things like backing into a parking space. If you are traveling, the boat will usually be safe overhanging a patch of grass than stuck out into the travel lane at a rest stop.
always?
I agree that on a 24" rack spread, at highway speeds, I would use bow and stern tie-downs. (The webbing loops under the hood and trunk are a nice solution.)
However, blanket statements like “it’s irresponsible not to use bow and stern lines” seem a little broad to me. Is everyone who uses a trailer with 6-foot bar spread irresponsible? Is it murderous of me not to use bow and stern lines with a 1000-pound rated truck rack with 6 foot bar spread?
Honest ta goodness tru tale…
– Last Updated: Feb-15-11 12:49 PM EST –
No kiddin'. Really happened! No BS~!
One day awhile back waan ah' wuz woykin' de paddlin' department at de "Outdoor" store waar ah' woyks part time at durin' de paddlin' season, ah' had dis here customer come in wantin' ta buy a 'yak an' after a couple hours o' tryin' ta haggle me down on a $200 tupperware boat (said she cood git it cheaper on de Internet - so ah' told her "Well fer dat price pick me up one too". She quickly changed de subject) an' iffin' ah'd throw in a pfd or a paddle fer nuttin' - yo, right heaaa.
Anywho, she finally made up her noggin' ta git de boat, ah' done de paperwoyk an' then of course asked her how she be a'plannin' on gittin' it home. So, she says she wants me ta put it on her car which wuz a small import or somethang like dat... no racks, nuttin'! But it did have a sunroof! Oh, great!
So, ah' asks her if she would like ta buy a rack or at least foam blocks. "No" she says wit annoyance. "I've spent enough money". "Just put it on top of the car and by the way, do you have some masking tape to attach it to my car?".
Now pilgrims, ah' gave her dat look o' "Yer gots ta be funnin' me, right?", but she wuz serious. After ah' tried ta git her mind right about wat she wuz figgerin' ta do, she looks at me wit a snarl an' then insistently an' quite rudely says "Well, use some duct tape then? You're just trying to get me to spend more money."
"No, ah's jus' tryin' ta save de lives o' de people in de cars dats be a'drivin' behind yer waan yer pull out onta Rt. 17".
Ah' then took de paperwoyk an' tore it up right in front o' her face."
She stormed out, but came back de next day wit her friend an' a pickup, paid fer de 'yak an' left wit her new $200 boat (an' not fro' de Internet an' no freebie paddle).
Takes all kinds. Honest tale.
By de way, ah' gots commoycial TracRacs attached ta welded rain gutters on me Jeep Cherokee (de whole roof has ta purdy much git torn off before dem racks would fail), heavy duty 1 1/2" NRS straps an'/or 1/2" rope but... ah' still use bow an' stern tiedowns religoosly no matter how far or how fast or slow ah' go - an' ah' trust dem racks an' straps/rope/knots - "BUT YER NEVER KNOW!" Only takes a'nudder minute or two.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2154224040094647494OGklSF
Ah's fixed 'nuff boats o' folks dat trusted their racks an' tiedowns an' then gone went an' fell off o' dems cars (racks an' all) - none o' dem mine!
Fat Elmo
You do have tow points
You may need to install them though! Many cars have a screw-in eyebolt that goes through a concealed opening in your bumpers. These eyebolts may be in your trunk near your jack or spare tire -
There are short straps made specifically to attach a tie down to them, that install under your engine/trunk lits to an existing bolt on the sheet metal. Not sure if you got a good one there or not on that car.
I’ve been using rope as tie downs on both my cars for several years and I see no wear on the pain of my front bumper where they touch. If worried, perhaps stick a sheet of clear 3M adhesive sheeting on the bumper to protect it. A 12 footer will have the ropes a little at an angle so you might get more rubbing compared to what I get on a 14-18 footer on a car that’s a couple of feet shorter than yours…
If I listened to all the so called
"wisedom" from all the “experts” on P-net I would be petrified to be paddling all these years
You don’t have a clue as to how my boats or racks are secured and if you would have used some “wisdom” and read all of my post above, you might have kept your “wisdom” to yourself.
jack L
“People” was originally a singular
collective noun, while “persons” was a plural noun. So originally when you were talking about “the people” as a body (“the people want bread and circuses”) that was correct, but if you saw three individuals down the street, you would say “those three persons”. Of course, since English is an informal living language, as opposed to French, which is governed by the Academie Francais, over time, broad change in usage itself determines what is “correct.” Sometimes, something that is technically “most correct” sounds awkward, and so it is best to go with what sounds better. As Winston Churchill said after having his use of a preposition at the end of a sentence: “this is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I shall not put.”
I was going to mention the trailers Nate
like all of the zillion ones who do shuttles, and guided trips, but that is too much for the “dooms day” posters to grasp.
I am sure some do, but I have never seen any that do, and I was at a place once where the guides had just finished tying down a half dozen yaks on a trailer. One of the paddlers who had a high end composite boat started to put end tie downs on his boat and the lead guide told him that if he continued he would not be responsible for the boat.
Jack L
Curious about your source
I don’t doubt that “people” is a collective noun, but that it was ever SINGULAR I can’t find attested (cf. British “the police is coming” vs. American “the police are coming”). Certainly it’s plural today. Where did you find that it was singular? Many thanks in advance.
Float Plane
The last time I flew into a river in Quebec my canoe was tied down with 2 rachet straps to the float supports…no bow or stern lines. Had me a little worried, but it stayed put.
Nice car.
Persons vs. People
Connotations are different. Use of “persons” in the context of my post conveys to me that there is a small group of identified people rather than an unidentified mass.
As mentioned in this thread…
…you will find popouts in your bumper covers for eyebolts for towing. You already have one bolt in your trunk and you will have to buy a second one.
Also you didn’t mention if you carry the kayak hull down or on its side. Carrying the boat hull down will lessen the effects of cross winds.
I’m moving from an Audi A4 wagon to a TTS where the spread is only 22 inches. The TTS has crossbars designed specifically for it (they lock and key into door frame fittings) and I’m switching from J-cradles to Thule 887xt Slipstreams so I can get my boat flat and get the straps out near the bulk heads. But just like wearing a PFD, I wouldn’t drive my kayak around the block without bow and stern lines.
stuff a sock in it
Or, more precisely, find a cotton sock and use it as a sleeve to keep the rope from rubbing the bumper.
If you’re making a short trip, say from the campsite to the launch, then no, maybe you don’t need tie-downs. Anything longer than that and I’d say you do.
yet you insist on saddles - NM
Similar car here
Unfortunately, you only have one recovery point per end. So I hook onto the muffler bracket on one side and use the recovery hook on the other. I’m not sure how much overhang you’ll have with only a 12’ boat since the car is somewhere around 14’ long.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2276049410080910974GgOwWk
Then in the front I just hook to each side of the stabilizer bar and use cotton rags to prevent too much rubbing on the paint.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2182330290080910974mvUzQY
As far as those underhood attachments, there are no big, oversized bolts like American cars. So you’d probably need to do something custom if you want to go that route. And remember, the front and rear tiedowns should be angled opposite from each other. They will not do anything if they are parallel. Picture it like / \ or \ /. Never have them like / / or \ .
or like =
Your last point is interesting
– Last Updated: Feb-15-11 1:38 PM EST –
On my truck, the kayak's painter lines fall into the "/ / " configuration because the kayak is on a topper roof. For the lines to have the " \ / " setup, the kayak would have to be, oh, about 20 feet, probably longer. For the lines to have the " / \ " setup, the kayak would have to be sitting with the front cradles/crossbar on the cab, and the rear cradles/crossbar on the topper. The latter is not recommended due to the typical independent movements of cab and bed (topper).
I set the sticky cradles slightly inward to match the hull's rocker (I use round crossbars) so that the boat is, effectively, hung in place instead of just sitting on cradle tops. The painter lines would not keep the boat from moving forward or backward some, if it did so (which it does not). The lines only keep the boat from flying completely away from the vehicle and becoming a free projectile. So they still provide some additional safety--not for me but for people in other vehicles around me. It's not the perfect solution but it's better than foregoing painter lines entirely. They're not hard to put on--strapping the boat on is the more time-consuming part by far.
Fortunately, I almost always trailer my kayak, and for that I don't use painter lines. Running low and in the slipstream behind the truck, the boats just don't get as much wind buffeting as they do on a rooftop, AND I can always see them in my rearview mirror.
truck solution
I have a similar issue with bow-line angles when I put kayaks on the rack over my bed. I solved it by attaching a loop of webbing to the firewall. It pokes out from the back of the hood, near the windshield wipers. When I’m not using it it just disappears under the hood.
This makes for a much better angle from the bow, and also avoids a really really long bow line, which could be a boat-snapper if it came loose from the bumper.