New layups included?
Pretty nicely made composites. Sounds like you had an Old Town boat?
Sorry…
But I have the exact opposite opinion of Necky. Slow, yes. Crap, definitely not, at least not as regards my Chatham 16.
Customer service, above and beyond what anyone has a right to expect.
Just my experience with Necky, sorry you obviously had a different one.
should have added
that the Valley is bombproof… when something is so well made it looks good too… mine is just off white deck, white hull, and I removed all the stickers…
I have also heard good things about WS Tempest and will be using a 170 at times on some trips and classes… but don’t have any personal experience with it so far…
haven’t paddled a new one
but my 2003 Looksha did not turn me on enough to try a new one
redriver, I agree and disagree
– Last Updated: Jun-22-09 11:01 PM EST –
Some of the worst composite pieces of crap I've ever seen came out of JOI's Old Town facility and you have no idea how much that hurt the designers of said boats!! Now, what is crazy ironic is that the latest Necky composites built in Thailand are the finest and strongest composite boats I have ever seen! So, they went from shit to phenomenal with a change in construction and vendor. Let's hope the new MBA's figure out that quality is not negotiable, rather an entry into the market.
Rad…the folk who helped you got fired.
– Last Updated: Jun-22-09 10:35 PM EST –
Seriously! The people that stood up and made things right for you are gone. That right there is a fact. Folk who built the shit boat that had to be replaced are still there. That right there is MBA thinking.
2006 C-18
I owned a 2006 C-18 for a couple of years. I don’t have a clue where it was made but the build quality was superb. Really 1st class. Whoever designed it thought about the lay up and whoever put it together paid attention to what they were doing.
Not meant to seem
as if correcting or indicating a deficiency in your post. I decided to list all the paddle brands for each of the ‘big 2’ for emphasis
Friendlyfire, that is the best
post I have ever read on Pnet. Period. Very true and well written.
no food without farmers
perhaps when the recession turns into worse, folks might see that planned obsolescence, a throw away culture, contaminants in products and food, and garbage covering the earth
might lead folks to seeing this way of “stuff” is not sustainable, good for the planet, nor living beings.
my nephew after seeing the short film, “the story of stuff” became worried about how many things his family bought and threw out. He was interviewed by a NYT reporter and my nephew said, “I have a big set of legos, but my dad and I will keep them for out whole lives. We don’t throw things out.”
So I guess it is more than quality I wish for, but a way of making things that last and we hang onto and value.
Talk about Hype
– Last Updated: Jun-23-09 9:42 AM EST –
I love Valley boats and respect the fact that they have set the stage with design details like, drop down skegs, compass recess, recessed deck fittings, VCP hatches, built in pumps, molded in seats, day hatches etc.
However, what crap fiberglass work. The worst ever. Gelcoat fissures everywhere. Now they have improved enormously. And have some all-time great classic hull designs. Everyone used to joke that if you got a Friday boat, it weighed 10 lbs. more than the others because they had to use up the polyester in the buckets. Bombproof, expedition layups?
Thanks for
– Last Updated: Jun-23-09 11:54 AM EST –
chiming in Jay.. I just learned that you also have designed some very impressive kayaks and would know more about past gel coat issues.. I agree that the Vally hatches are the best.. I just leaned how to make the double seal.. I also see other hatches in lesser kayaks coming off all the time.. the gel coat on my 08-09 is flawless.. I was also told that Valley use a thicker gel coat for durability and didn't have any real issues with the last one..
As far as bombproof, my experience has been in the surf when other kayakers are commenting on their kayak oil canning and falling apart.. I won't say which kayak but it was also $3000 and much lighter.. the Valley seems very strong even when the nose hits the sand and I do an end over.. that must put a lot of stress on the hull? It seems very strong to me and really beautiful.. another 4* IT whitwater and seakayak instructor with over 20 years experience compared my Valley next to a NDK and put the Explorer to shame.. he pointed out all kinds of bad quality issues with the NDK and had nothing but praise for my Valley.. he was also using a OI that day.. ;)
and by the way, what's up with that offset skeg on the OI? Never seen anything like it on any boat ..
Edit: Also, me posting my personal experience with a kayak I own is not hype. I'm not a designer or trying to promote anything I have made or trying to sell.
The boats we love…
We love the boats we love.
NDK had notorious quality control issues for years - yet many paddlers still purchased them because of how well the boats performed. Our solution was to buy our NDK boats from Tom Bergh (MIKCo) knowing that he would take care of any issues with the boats - which he did.
I’ve got two Valley boats (2004 Aquanaut, 2008 Nordkapp LV) both are beautifully made. The Aquanaut has seen some pretty heavy use including rock gardening off MDI - and has the scars to prove it. The boat is a ProLite layup (no longer offered) and has been bomb proof. The boat weighs more than my Nordlow which is a standard layup and has a keel strip.
I’ve heard of earlier Valley boats having some build issues, but recent vintage ones tend to be very well made. The one Valley boat I’ve owned which had problems was replaced with a new boat, built for me, as soon as Peter Orton (CEO of Valley) was informed of the problems.
RE: off center skeg placement: Island Kayaks also have their skegs placed to one side. This increaes usable space in the aft compartment with no negative effect on the function of the skeg.
… and reduces jam potential. NM
so true
– Last Updated: Jun-23-09 1:34 PM EST –
I wouldn't suggest to anyone that their kayak isn't well built, that's what the internet is for! ;)
When I tested an Explorer the build quality wasn't a concern.. I did notice the combing kind of jamming into my side for a roll? Didn't like that..
As far as gel coat, I did look at an OI on the rack and it looked really good.. probably the best looking gel coat I've seen but that's just me looking at it.. I'm also impressed with my Valley..
The skeg off to the side seems unusual.. when edging in rough conditions it just seems like it could be way off to the side and could throw you for a loop.. although I have no experience with it.. I remember the 4* instructor said it was a good kayak.. I like the way it looks.. my kind of design.. hopefully I'll take it out.. although I'm still getting used to the Nord LV.. which is fantastic..
Very different boats
The OI and Nordlow are such different boats that you could own both with little redundancy - overlap in personality 
local geography
– Last Updated: Jun-23-09 3:33 PM EST –
Except for perhaps QCC, most kayaks are purchased via visits to local retail dealers within an XXX mile radius from home. The number of dealers, big box stores, and outfitters and their brand offerings varies signficantly based on geography- nearness to coast or major bodies of water, population centers, etc. Kayak brand ownership heavily correlates to what is available in in-stock inventory fairly locally. Yes, serious enthusiasts I know do drive hundreds of miles to test paddle and purchase composite boats. But most will buy what is available in their home area. Close to home, the only kayak dealer around once had composite inventory heavily consisting of Swift kayaks, so that is for years what many members of the local kayaking club paddled. The nearest dealer of NDK, Valley, and P & H was over 100 miles away and only a few I know visited there. The majority of boat purchasers will buy the only game in town if that is most convenient. I've previously given the same example of the Adirondack Paddlefest, where the sponsoring dealer is not a dealer of Brit boats, and no longer Eddyline, and often has limited Impex stock. Their inventory is mainly Current Designs and WS. So of course, attendees of Paddlefest will buy what is available and in stock. What is my point? To the original posted topic, I guess I'm saying that no matter what the advertising hype or quality, the majority of kayak owners buy what the local dealer has in stock. Paddlesport events, mainly dealer sponsored, do not necessarily offer a wider variety of brands to try.
Sea change
Wow, I didn’t realize they had changed so much. It does shrink the possibilities when people can’t seeing is believing and try them out.
True martin
Years back I ran an outdoor adventure program and we bought Necky cuz they were reasonably local and Mike was super focused and friendly on / with outfitters. Invariably my customers bought a lot of Necky boats. Later I bought Valley and NDK as well.
Similarly anyone involved in the BCU gig and attending events likely will buy an NDK or Valley from the sponsoring dealer cuz that’s what the guru’s paddle and like.
The odd Chatham or Tempest will be there, but the majority of folk will buy what others in their sub group have.
And that’s all good BTW.
I was thinking the same thing
about the self-serving nature of Nimbus’s comment. It was kind of hype in itself.