my point was
Skill development is all about spending time on the water. No matter what you do you will be exposed to education, skill development and elements regardless of whether your kayak has a rudder or not.
A few thoughts…
…about kayak sizing (Greenland style or similar designs) when seeking a kayak that is seaworthy and easy driven.
Surprisingly accurate rule of thumb for length: Kayak length = kayaker length * 3. Significantly shorter than that will be slow due to the negative effects of short waterline length and the kayaker most probably will waste his/her energy trying to make the boat go faster unaware that max hull speed is already reached. Significantly longer than that will also be slow as the kayaker most probably will not possess the physics to overcome the higher initial resistance and will not come near the theoretically higher maximum speed of the boat. A longer kayak will also be more difficult to handle in rougher conditions.
Narrower does not always mean tippier but it usually means faster. For a good and effective paddling stroke you need a relatively narrow kayak. I would say 22 inches is a good measure for your height. A taller person has easier to paddle a wider kayak as he/she can easier use a longer paddle and has a higher pivoting point and longer arms. Hard(er) chined boats can be surprisingly narrow without losing stability (e.g. 20" Tiderace Xplore_S).
A kayak too big is riding nicely high and dry in good conditions but it is often harder to handle in rougher conditions when comparing to a boat that most of the time requires a tight spraydeck. The high riding kayak tends to have more windage and will skeet on the water surface in windy conditions which can to some extent be compensated with raw paddling power. A kayak riding low is well dug in to the wave and also has less windage for the wind to grab hold of. A key factor is buoyancy i.e. total kayak volume compared to total kayaker + gear weight. A narrow bow and stern is good as it minimizes the wetted surface for speed and also gives less buoyancy in the ends for waves to play with (a kayak with high buoyancy bow and stern becomes incredibly tippy regardless of maximum width when it gets lifted by two sharp waves in following seas).
I guess my 30 minutes is up…
Holy CowJack!, You are really mellowing.
What the heck have you been doing down there? Very well said. A++ :)Bill
Maybe not
– Last Updated: Mar-31-10 7:00 PM EST –
"Skill development is all about spending time on the water. No matter what you do you will be exposed to education, skill development and elements regardless of whether your kayak has a rudder or not."
Time on the water isn't the same as skill development. It isn't just "practice", it's practicing "correct" things.
Many people don't think there is any sort of real skill involved in paddling. To learn a skill, one has to realize that there is a skill involved.
Rudders appeal to *novices* because they appear necessary.
One can certainly learn skills with a "ruddered" boat. I think many people (beginners) believe they don't need to learn skills because they have a rudder.
People without rudders might tend to be more motivated to learn boat control skills because they don't have the crutch.
I have had a bad back for the last 32
years. As I write this I am off the water because of problems. Surgery on three levels in 04 and I now need a three level fusion. I will dleay the surgery for as long as I can. I cannot static brace because of my back (flexibility is gone along with articulation). I can do basically all of the Greenland lay back rolls(no hand roll reliably yet), it is the forward finishing rolls that hurt my back. I will paddle 51 miles later this month in the Hugh Heward Challenge (8.5 hours). My spine has changed my life and at times robbed me of it, kayaking has given alot of it back to me. Push on carefully, your body will tell you where to stop. Advil is your friend. If you feel you need a rudder, get it. If you think you can start without it, I think it is better to learn the fundamentals first and then pick up a rudder if you want it later. Have a big time. :0 Bill
GP has plenty of resistance for a low
brace or slap. The surface area of the two paddles is nearly equal, and yes I know the Euro has more volume further out, but when was the last time you buried a GP on a low brace? I’m 240 lbs and I have never done it. I say use whatever paddle you want to use, but the GP should be easier on the body, and more useful in learning to roll (my experience only). Bill
The 3x height sounds wrong to me
When sizing skis for downhill, it is more important to size them for the weight of the skier than to their height. The ski does not care how tall the skier is, just how heavy so that it bends accordingly to carve turns.
Wouldn’t something like that be true for kayak length? I think it would. A 160lb 6 footer vs. a 160lb 5 footer: who will need the longer boat? Neither - they both need the same length boat based on weight alone and height should not matter, IMO.
Now, within some weight to height paddler ratios one may make assumptions about how strong the paddler is (maybe BMI or something like that can be used instead - more muscle, more strength). That would be an indication of whether they would want and be capable of higher sustained speeds and thus enjoy a longer boat…
Not sure what the simplified formula for weight vs. boat length would be though -
Any guesses?
Size matters, that’s a fact.
– Last Updated: Mar-31-10 7:43 PM EST –
It's true that weight is one factor but length is also a factor that correlates to the paddler's dimensions. A longer person is more likely to have a longer upper body and arms. Those factors are essential when choosing a paddle and the combination of paddle and body dimensions affect your reach and pivot point which in turn dictate the choice of kayak length and width within your weight range. You should not choose a paddle based on the chosen kayak. You should choose the paddle based on your dimensions. If the correct paddle doesn't fit your kayak, don't change paddle - change kayak.
Skis are designed to flex under your body weight - kayaks aren't.
OR…
You could stop making it so complicated, go out to a demo, and buy what feels right.
…Just a thought.
Rreferences?
“Surprisingly accurate rule of thumb for length: Kayak length = kayaker length * 3. Significantly shorter than that will be slow due to the negative effects of short waterline length and the kayaker most probably will waste his/her energy trying to make the boat go faster unaware that max hull speed is already reached. Significantly longer than that will also be slow as the kayaker most probably will not possess the physics to overcome the higher initial resistance and will not come near the theoretically higher maximum speed of the boat. A longer kayak will also be more difficult to handle in rougher conditions.”
Any references for this?
Numbers show that the hull resistance at “normal/typical” paddling speeds for different kayaks are pretty close.
“Accurate” might mean as much as ± 20%.
Try google
"Any references for this?"
It’s simply an observation based on years of experience and not on theoretical science. I’m 5’9" and I won’t even consider a kayak shorter than 15ft as I know it will be too slow for me and I also know 18ft will be too long for me in conditions. Some people significantly taller than me are perfectly happy in 19ft boats and some people shorter than me are perfectly happy in 15ft boats, no surprise to me.
But as you asked I did a quick search in Google and found that some quite similar measurements exist in traditional kayak building. (http://www.bobfoote.com/bob/instruction/kayakbuilding/kayakmeasurements.htm, http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.shtml came up first)
“Numbers show that the hull resistance at “normal/typical” paddling speeds for different kayaks are pretty close.”
That depends on the definition of “normal/typical”. It’s not all about speed. Maneuverability is highly affected by boat length.
““Accurate” might mean as much as ± 20%.”
-+ 20% is highly inaccurate in my book.
Yes, it depends
– Last Updated: Apr-01-10 5:57 PM EST –
"That depends on the definition of "normal/typical". It's not all about speed."
Of course it does.
"Maneuverability is highly affected by boat length."
Yes, this is one reason the 3*height approach is too precise and overly simplistic. It's also complicated by differences in waterline and overall length.
"But as you asked I did a quick search in Google and found that some quite similar measurements exist in traditional kayak building."
Those references don't indicate *why* this magic number is the correct one. Note that it's possible that these two references use the same source.
Being "traditional" doesn't mean it's the "best".
"-+ 20% is highly inaccurate in my book."
My point was describing this as a range is much more reasonable than present a single "perfect" magic number.
15-19 feet is a difference of 4 feet. +-10% might be a better guess (for a total range of 20%).
Simplistic precision?
“Yes, this is one reason the 3height approach is too precise and overly simplistic. It’s also complicated by differences in waterline and overall length."
How can it be too precise and overly simplistic at the same time? 3.0 would be too precise. Differences is waterline and overall length are accounted for as waterline length is constantly shifting in conditions and I mentioned “Greenland style or similar designs” which indicates there will be some overhangs.
I said it’s a rule of thumb meaning that it’s not a single “perfect” magic number but it’s a good starting point give or take a few inches. Defining a range, say 15-19 feet is not good as it’s easy to believe 15=19… sure, I can paddle a 15 footer or a 19 footer but they will behave totally differently and none of them will suit me as good as one somewhere inbetween (say approx. 17 feet which just happens to be roughly 3 my height). As it happens, the best boat for me I have found so far is 17’6” which is slightly longer than 3* my height. I know other paddlers who have been perfectly happy in whatever kayak they have had but who have become even more happy when they have found a kayak that suits them “perfectly” (which just happens to be… you guessed it… approx. 3*height).
“Being “traditional” doesn’t mean it’s the “best”.”
It depends on what you use it for. For me there is a lot of wisdom in “traditional” if we are talking truly seaworthy and comfortable kayaks that not only fits as a glove but feels as a body part you’re born with. Many “modern” designs come and go but the “traditional” heritage designs remain.
PWC
10 ft. long, up to 180 hp… Handle rough seas with ease.
A lonely number.
– Last Updated: Apr-02-10 7:03 PM EST –
"How can it be too precise and overly simplistic at the same time?"
The single number was not presented with a range. A single number is overly simplistic.
=========
"3.0 would be too precise."
Maybe, 2.9 or 3.2 would be even more "surprisingly accurate". It's the lack of some sort of range that makes that single number seem precise. You addressed that in a subsequent post.
=========
"they have found a kayak that suits them 'perfectly'".
What does this mean?
=========
"I said it's a rule of thumb meaning that it's not a single "perfect" magic number".
Well, it was a "surprisingly accurate" one! The "surprisingly accurate" kind of contradicts "rule of thumb".
=========
"For me there is a lot of wisdom in "traditional" if we are talking truly seaworthy and comfortable kayaks that not only fits as a glove but feels as a body part you're born with. Many "modern" designs come and go but the "traditional" heritage designs remain."
The traditional designs (some of them, the ones we know about, the Greenland ones) appear to work pretty well. It's just not clear that it's the "best" design.
=========
"It depends on what you use it for."
Yes, that's it exactly. Which is why that one, lonely number is misleading.
Also great for buzzing kayakers with!
NM
boat length
– Last Updated: Apr-03-10 8:13 AM EST –
It really depends on what you want to do---if you want to take longer even overnight trips, then longer generally is better-but at 16.5 you should have enough length---if you want to do rougher more open waters, the length you have is fine--
I'm going to give you the same advice others have given you and tell you to improve your skill level with the boat you have--take some lessons, work on self rescues and a roll--and go out as often as you can with your BF or others and build your confidence and abilities--once you are comfortable in your current boat, then you will be able to chose another one based on your own individual needs--
and BTW if you plan on going out in even relatively mild conditions, (waves over 12 inches) wear your skirt--it will keep water out of your lap.--the idea of getting a boat with a higher deck so your cockpit doesnt get wet is self defeating--the higher the deck the more difficult to self rescue and/or roll and the more difficult to handle in stronger winds. Also the higher your center of gravity, (assuming the seat is higher) the more tippy the boat will be