Sure
It’s pretty automatic if you do that, and that process makes you lean “the right direction” too.
That’s sometimes the result when …
– Last Updated: Mar-25-12 12:52 AM EST –
... people think and write in different ways - misunderstandings are bound to happen. By my way of thinking, I prefer to write exactly what I mean and to choose words that will not carry an incorrect meaning if someone interprets them literally. Sometimes it takes a lot more words to say something that can be interpreted in the intended way but no other, but in lucky cases it takes fewer words. If someone does not understand what I wrote, instead of calling them "stupid" I figure I should have found a way to write more clearly and usually try again (I save the "stupid" remarks for extreme cases of intentionally ignoring key points). Because accurate writing is my my preference, I tend to be fooled by the writings of those who don't view their own words the same way. Also, when learning a new skill, I prefer to understand how and why it works instead of being told to blindly follow particular rules as a shortcut to actual teaching. If someone seems to be stating a reason that is clearly wrong, I'll often try to make the real reason clear. Put those two traits together, and when I read that the boat moves in the direction it is pushed with your foot, I figured it meant exactly that, a statement of cause and effect. Note that I wasn't the only person to think that's what you said and to offer a way of demonstrating otherwise. In any case, if that's what you had really meant to say, it'd hardly have been the first time someone stated cause and effect wrongly, and not knowing the first thing about you, I had no reason to doubt what appeared to be your intended meaning.
By the way, the "physics lesson" about how a boat turns when leaned comprised about two sentences of what I wrote, and perhaps just one additional sentence would have finished the job, so I'm surprised you find the prospect of that style of explanation so taxing. All the rest of what I wrote was an attempt to shed some light on what appeared to be your mistaken understanding of the "how and why", which is a much bigger task than simply explaining why a boat that is tilted to one side will carve a turn (it's also something that would be totally unnecessary if starting a lesson from scratch about how to lean and turn).
My Experience - Sea Kayak
None of the boats I ever owned would turn just by leaning.
If you want to maintain your speed, sweep on your left and lean the boat left to make the boat go right. Vice versa to go left.
If maintaining speed isn’t important and you want to turn quickly, lay your paddle flat on the water’s surface to your right, lean right onto the paddle (brace) and your boat will go right. Vice versa to go left.
You evidently didn’t read my answer
to him above.
I am not sure why all these other posts are under mine, but it appears that people also don’t know the proper procedure for posting a reply.
Jack L
Turning Explanation
Guideboatguy, your posting of Mar-25-12 12:01 AM is spot on. Couldn’t agree more
really
I prefer sea kayaks with a pronounced chine (like a Chesapeake Light Craft Patuxent 17.5 or my Arctic Hawk) because I can make course corrections with an off-side lean without paddle input.
I’m not talking about a 180 degree U-turn necessarily but both those boats will make a distinct yaw to the opposite side when heeled with the paddle out of the water.
I Would Like That
but nope. None of my boats would turn squat without the paddle.
When you eddy out
Lean the boat like it’s a bicycle making the turn.
Don’t worry about “why” at first. It will make sense later.
It doesn’t get any simpler than that.
Same here
I have only limited experience (WS Tsunami 165 and WS Zephyr 160). If I have headway in flatwater and I do nothing other than put it on edge I get hardly any reaction from the boat. If I put it on edge and then give one firm sweep on one side or the other the hull turns in the direction you would expect based on the sweep without any additional paddle input.
A drawing to explain
I have an article on leaned turns here:
http://www.outer-island.com/Articles.html
the illustration explains the theory.
It still takes some speed…
– Last Updated: Mar-25-12 10:52 AM EST –
but if I paddle straight and set a good edge on either of my sea kayaks, assuming the wind isn't interfering, the bow will turn a bit.
As said above, it is hardly a complete turn. But it is enough to show that an edge can make or break a good turn.
Remember that this thread did not start asking if you should be executing turns just by leaning/edging, but which edge to choose. I don't think anyone has suggested skipping the sweep stroke to start one, or being less aggressive than needed. A lot of the responses, mine included, have been just on thoughts and behaviors that can point to which how the edging is likely to work best.
I think that some of the responses have gone further, essentially filling in the rest of the turn technique.
When you drop an edge at speed
– Last Updated: Mar-25-12 10:58 AM EST –
in flatwater with no paddle input - which way does your kayak turn? Is it the modified hull shape that remains in the water that makes it turn in one direction versus the other? Can't seem to get that link to outer-island working.
edit - that like is working now. That is a nice little description for sure. It does seem that the boat naturally turns away from the edge that is dropped but I am not sure I 100% understand why it does that. I remember seeing a drawing showing the shape of the hull in the water when the edge is dropped but for the life of me I cannot find it. That drawing might bring this more clearly into focus for me.
Easiest to just try it out
Get going straight at a good speed, then drop an edge and see where you go. Obviously rudders and skegs up. If you see no directional change, however slight, it is likely due to wind, lack of speed, currebt or you haven’t really gotten the boat on edge.
This is getting way too theoretical - I agree with some above on that. Dropping the edge needs to happen fairly thoughtlessly in a pinch, and the only way you get that response is by doing it.
I’ll plead guilty re getting too
theoretical. But it is counter-intuitive and sometimes it helps to understand why the boat does what it does.
I think Jay’s article puts it quite well
If you look at the frontal view of a hard-chined boat like the frontal diagram of the Pygmy Arctic Tern on this webpage: http://www.pygmyboats.com/hard-chine-vs-multi-chine.html
you can imagine that with a bit of heel the chine along the side of the hull could be dropped as deep or deeper in the water than the keel line and would have as much or more effect on the path of the boat as the keel line would.
But the keel line is straight from stem to stern and the line of the chine is dramatically curved along the side of the hull. So the boat naturally follows a path corresponding to the curvature of that chine.
Think of it this way…
– Last Updated: Mar-25-12 11:42 AM EST –
You have a 12 ft row boat on the lawn. it's 4 ft wide. You're building it so there's no bottom on it. You lean it on the left side and push from the back. The left side of the boat is curved to the right like a curved road. The boat goes right.
Not making a lot of sense to me -
– Last Updated: Mar-25-12 1:17 PM EST –
but I'm challenged in this area so its probably just me. I guess if the boat has no rocker than yes, I can see that. But if a boat is heavily rockered than no - I can't visualize it.
I guess it falls into the category of one of those things I just need to accept on faith.
Seems that if your boat turns naturally to the off side then you are fighting its natural tendencies when you try to put it on edge and turn to the "on" side - like we were discussing with an eddy turn.
See it to understand
– Last Updated: Mar-25-12 1:43 PM EST –
Animated tutorial for kayaking - free info :
**Go to http://www.kayakpaddling.net/
Click on the British Flag for english
(red cross in blue circle )
-click on paddling basics
-- click on carved turns
Play the animation by clicking "forward" arrow
Seeing it visually works well for many paddlers
When the kayak is edged,
the curve of the hull is submerged,
forcing the kayak to turn to the
opposite side of the edging.
To put kayak on edge,
push one knee up on the underside of deck
while weighting the opposite hip.
yes, you generally need some paddle
to get the turn started. I’ve seen many others echo this same idea that edging itself normally isn’t enough. But with edging you generally only need a hint of a sweep to get a noticeable change in direction. I suspect most that might feel they can do only by edging unknowingly gave a wee bit more of a stroke on one side while or just before edging to help.
Hey, that’s great!
Thanks for the reference.