Hardly Ever
I have a sneaking suspicion that my monkey brain got freaked out at one poll class when the instructor had me go off on my own with a buddy to practice rolls with a paddle float. I ran into trouble and was running out of air, couldn’t find the bow of my buddy, and discovered that the pull ring wasn’t extended on the neo skirt of my rental boat (I’ll never do that again).
Lou
Yes, A Number of Them
And I have rolled successfully in class as a result.
Much of the drills I describe have been prescribed by more than one of my roll instructors after discussing my issue with them. One of them (who worked with me in at leaset 3 classes) said that it’s all mental, and that I already know how to roll.
Lou
Simplicity
As Dave Matthews says:
Ten fingers counting we have each¡ nine planets
Around the sun repeat
Eight ball the last if you triumphant be ¡seven oceans - pummel
The shores of the sea
It’s a typical situation in these typical times
Too many choices, hey yeah
It’s a typical situation in these typical times
Too many choices
You might want to buy Jay Babina’s rolling video, and, having watched a master teacher simply rolling, learn to listen to your body not the voices in your head: http://www.outer-island.com/1stRollVideopg.html . To get the feel of rolling, take your time and relax into the roll so that it happens all by itself. When I was learning, I found it much easier if I left all the chit chat in the mind up on the surface, and just focused my interior voice on a simple mantra that ran in pictures more than words: setup, sweep, finish looking up on back deck. Jay’s video is quiet, reassuring, and focused on getting up with a minimum of bother and a maximum of ease and reliability. Highly recommended for beginners.
Not your fitness then!
I’m 42, 5’9" 200. Not very flexible and carrying a good bit of extra flotation! OK cardio and strength, but nothing remarkable. A lot above the waist toge get out of the water! If I can…
I’m using a GP almost always, in a QCC 700 with a very high rear coaming (front deck height is good) but it’s still a very nice boat to roll with either a partial arch/layback or a more upright finish ala “Kayak Roll”. I have probably the most minimal paddling/outfitting I’ve seen in a boat that is regularly rolled (I only have small foam pads 1/2" thick under each thigh brace - and those are not hooked). Seems more than adequate though, and I can’t deal with sardine can style wedged in setup for paddling over distance or any any speed! Outfitting can be key - but IMO some folks take it to an (unnecessary?) extreme in sea kayaks.
Didn’t know about this incident.
If you posted it before in your series I must have missed it. That is enough to scare off anyone. I once put on my skirt at the end of a practice rescue with the grab loop inside. Luckily I noticed it. It took two of us to get the skirt off. Now I am very careful to check. Glad you survived.
You should look at that as a good lesson
Do not write this off as a bad event - it was a VERY valuable one that presented an opportunity to identify potential dangers AND learn ways to ensure they are never a danger to you again.
Obviously capsizes can occur regardless of if you have assistance nearby, or the loop is out on skirt, etc.
This pool episode of yours brings up an important safety issue: EVERYONE should have practice getting their skirt off WITHOUT the grab loop. They can get tucked in, get hung up on something (on or off the boat) and can also tear off.
Rather than be afraid of this possibility - just learn to take it of without the loop!
Same goes for doing it one handed - with either hand! It’s nice to keep paddle in one hand and release the skirt with the other - which then becomes free to hold onto the kayak. Injuries happen too. Drowning because of a strained wrist, dislocated shoulder, or even something as minor as a broken finger should never happen! If you are worried about the skirt under decent circumstances - I hope I have given you even more to consider!
If the skirt intimidates you at all - simply work on mastering the skirt! This is a mandatory back to basics thing. It only takes a few minutes to get down - and some infrequent practice to stay OK at it. Obviously it’s time to practice again any time you get a different skirt too.
You need to be reasonably comfortable/confident/competent with each piece of gear in less than ideal situations or you never will be OK underwater. The usual prescription for people with skirt issues is a fit check (second opinion) and then more wet exits! That still tends to only addresses rather ideal situations.
You should be 100% confident you can get your skirt off - loop or not - with either or both hands - before practicing rolling. 1000% if you practice alone. If not - make it so!
With most skirts you can just grab at the side (one, not both) - pull to stretch and get some material in your grip (actually more like grab and push away then up then back - similar to what most do with the loop) - and voilà!
Another thing that helps with easier on and off? Cheapo plastic auto door trim around the coaming rim! That way the skirt has a smoother and more rounded surface to move on. Practically invisible on a black coamings (or find clear/colored trim?). This does not lessen the seal or ability to take waves. It will also prolong the life of your skirt. FWIW.
While we’re checking basics, if wet exits are not easy, fairly leisurely and boring even - you need to do more of them until they are. If you still rush or fight your way out - you’re not going to roll. Steady and by the numbers until it’s automatic and you don’t even really think about it anymore and maintain control of boat and blade throughout.
A capsize and successful wet exit should be a given (including skirt release). A normal thing done while practicing paddling skills - not a special event/problem unless you’re out in serious conditions (but you’d have trained for that too, right?).
I like the part in EJs DVD where his student is about to roll - and you can clearly see them getting “set” first. He stops them there, because as soon as you ready yourself like that - it shows you’re nervous/unsure and are too tensed up to let things proceed successfully (it might be in the bonus tracks for instructors? If you haven’t seen it - it’s a great observation from a great teacher. The way EJ teaches, and the simplicity of how he keeps only one or two things on the students minds at any time are what make his method so successful. He makes it pretty obvious how important a clear head is - and how to easily keep one by limiting your focus. This can be applied to the other rolling styles once you’ve seen him in action.).
If you are already OK with the skirt as described above, forgive my rambling (but if you were that tucked loop event would be a stepping stone to you now, not a block).
Whatever you do - don’t get into mindsets where everything has to be exactly right (loop out) and things can only be done one way. A flexible mind that is accustomed to coming up with options/variations is much harder to panic than one with rigid and linear thought processes.
Rigid thinking forms the bars of a cage for your monkey. That cage keeps him very close - and he WILL rattle that cage! Be flexible and let the monkey roam free. He has a limited attention span and will quickly move on to other things, leaving you alone to do your boring rolling while he daydreams of fun stuff or bitches about work! The monkey doesn’t care what it attends to - so don’t force it to roll with you by locking it in.
We all have our comfort zones (comfort zones = monkey cages) - but they are self imposed and can be expanded or even abandoned (even if temporarily at first) fairly easily if approached with an attitude of accepting variability instead of trying to eliminate it - and attending to what is actually happening vs. what we think is or should be happening.
Waste no time paying attention to the monkey or the cages. Let them do as they please. Both are distractions at best, and excuses at worst. Neither can roll you boat, so why do you dwell on them?
Short version: The skirt loop experience is not the problem. It’s an opportunity (on several levels).
Nice video link
http://www.unold.dk/paddling/php/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=2
especially the John Petersen roll(s). That’s the point: play with the boat. Go in, start in flat water (1-2 feet) with solid sandy ground were you can use your arms to lift your head out of the water. Roll down, wait, lift up again with your arms until you get familiar with the upside down position. Next step is using the paddle - still in flat water so you can use your arms to get up if anything fails. After a while you’ll see that it’s important that you don’t sit upright. Try both leaning forward and backward to find out the best position for your boat and body. Good luck!
I never thought of that one before!
– Last Updated: Jul-15-05 7:41 AM EST –
A good simple point-use shallow water and your arms to upright yourself! No paddle to worry about initially-might help with your hip snap...I'm working on EJ's roll method right now so my head will be on my back deck out of the way anyway-might even be doing a hand roll first in that case eh?
Limits without limiting oneself!
For me paddling is no different than anything else in life, so what you find here you find eveywhere, just maybe more dramatic being upside down in a boat and no air.
How about considering, and accepting that the only reason you have difficulty is that you are not all that coordinated. This is not an insult!!! Please! Just that better to not blame it on a zillion reasons or yourself. We all get handed cards from the deck some have more physical talent than others.
Why say this? To pick on you, no way! I think the VALUE of your posts might be to illuminate BETTER teaching methods for the many paddlers who are less coordinated so they can experience the same thrills and positive identity change that others get from learning braces, rolls, sculls, etc.
What is clear to me is that once I was willing to look at the real level of learning ability in different students and modify MY WAY OF TEACHING rather than insist they were not focusing or practicing enough etc. then I became much more able to teach folks who had a significantly harder time learning.
That said, once a student gets the feeling that they are both limited in ability and WRONGLY concludes they will not really bew able to learn it, then all H E L L breaks loose in their minds and there is analysis paralysis. This is what I see happening with you. If this continues you may make if very difficult for yourself to learn this, not impossible, but way harder than necessary for yourself.
Stop learning by yourself, get someone supporting you and have them break down the skill into bits, each time you mess up, go back to what is good and practice that then move forward with them helping you move the boat blade and head torso correctly and then with less and less guiding. This will spare you all this analysis.
Thanks Evan
I have actually had quite a number of dedicated hours with a rolling instructor (more than one) and have rolled. In fact, I’ll venture to say that any of the good instructors who are reading this thread could probably get me to roll unassisted in under an hour. I say this with confidence because instructors have gotten me to do so.
What I found was a reluctance to practice on my own after a rolling class. After some reflection, I realized that it was fear, not lack of ability, that was preventing me from practicing.
So, these exercises I’m doing are to get me to a place where I’m comfortable, and don’t need an instructor standing next to me to roll. I did not dream these excercises up. 2 rolling instructors I’ve worked with before gave them to me. It’s training (or un-training?) for my brain more than my body. I am seeing progress. Each week it takes me a little less time to get to a feeling of ease, and each week I tried to progress that feeling of ease to the next point in my roll. Once I can progress through a complete roll by myself, I am considering a session with an instructor to help correect any bad habits I may have developed.
Sorry for the long post…Lou
The Art Of "Ukemi…"
is learning to overcome fear and being able to protect oneself. After that, you can learn to throw. There is analogy here, I think. 
sing
You’ve got it Sing
In Judo, if the body is not relaxed (i.e. the fear factor is not dealt with) it is much more likely to be injured when taking a fall. Technique also suffers considerably.
A paradox needs to be broken. The body doesn’t want to be injured, so the primordial brain decides to resist and be tense, but the tension is what prevents a safe throw. It’s broken through disecting the technique and repetition over time.
Even with a rolling instructor present, my first rolling attempts are very rushed and stiff, and they don’t work. The primordial brain decides to resist by struggling to get the head above water as fast as possible, but this resistance prevents the roll. The only time I’ve rolled is when I have been able to relax and just go with it.
In a storm, reeds will bend, trees will fall…Lou
Uh huh… I see.
“What I found was a reluctance to practice on my own after a rolling class. After some reflection, I realized that it was fear, not lack of ability, that was preventing me from practicing.”
I remember the first time I practiced rolling on the reservoir, by myself. I was able to roll consistently in the pool in my whitewater boat and sea kayak. Once I got on that big, dark reservoir by myself, I was scared! I found a nice secluded cove, parked about 20 feet from shore, where I could see the bottom (about 10 feet down). I sat there breathing hard and deep, to make sure I had enough air for several attempts (in case of failure). It took me a few minutes to actually get the courage to capsize. By the time I did, my blood-oxygen level was so high that when I leaned forward and up (during the set-up) my vision whited out! Next thing I knew I was upright and gradually getting my sight back! (I guess I was almost one of those guys they find upside down, still in kayak, with no expanation).
Anyway, the only way you will get past that fear is to get in the water and stay there until you’re SICK of it. “Practice 'til you puke” in other words.
There’s no other way Lou…
now get out there.
Absolutely! That’s My Plan!
Water visibility
Lou, are you using a swim mask?
If not, you might try it, in addition to paddling in fairly clear water as suggested above. For me, there was a definite pyschological aspect to rolling in clear water vs. opaque. It’s actually smart, because you can see any rocks or steel bars or other hard objects below. Add the swim mask to see which way is up while you’re learning. Later after you are rolling most of the time, close your eyes and let your sense of body position take over.
The mask is a bit of a PITA. Noseclips are nicer, but if you want to look around with head under water, the mask feels better to the eyes.
I still pause…
…when about to practice alone. Usually a little hard to get started. After I’m wet it pretty much goes away and I just get into enjoying things. I don’t have this hesitant feeling when with others - whether they are onshore or in another kayak - and it’s not about being rescued or anything as they can be novices or even non-paddlers.
Being self taught, it was initially much worse. I would plan to work on things - and just not do it. This reduced my sessions to short ones (20 minutes of not rolling can be pretty tiring!) on days Kim would paddle with me - which wound up being about once every three months! I probably had only about maybe 4-5 hours of dedicated wet exit, paddle float rescue, cowboy rescue, and roll practice in by the time I got the roll working - but that was spread over a year and a half (and we have no real off season). For some those gaps would be a problem, for me it seemed to give things time to sink in (maybe you need to just paddle some?) Still, up until I got it - the attempts were not looking much better than the very first one I tried! Muscle memory was developing though. Moving to a different boat provided a different feel and broke me out of my rut - and once it clicked it worked in my kayak too.
BTW - What are you using to reward yourself after each session for all this effort you’re putting in? There needs to be positive association with this activity - not just nose to the grindstone torture sessions!
Smaller low profile mask and nose clip
Try one of the smaller masks that doesn’t cover your nose and a set of nose clips. Much more comfy than clunky dive/snorkel masks. This combo also lets you try mask only, clips only, etc.
As soon as things start working - keep mask on but close eyes. By the time the roll is working it’s mostly by feel anyway. From there you can lose the mask (but handy to bring it out again trying new rolls).
more on rolling
Best at this point (perhaps) to learn an onside extended paddle roll, so you have a reliable fail-safe roll that you can do in the middle of the lake by yourself just to cool off w/o having to worry about whether you’ll miss the roll. It is really easy compared to the standard sweep and much easier than the C to C. Can’t recommend the Jay Babina roll video highly enough in this regard. Also, he spends a fair bit of time on kayak outfitting–if your boat isn’t outfitted properly, it makes rolling so much more difficult.