Perhaps another thread…
The comment about a percieved advantage of a GP in wind is intesting, and what I am about to comment on may need to be started on another thread. Good points are starting to be lost!
There just might be a real advantage of a GP in wind, but not necessarily for features of a GP most visually apparent.
First, the slimmer blade profile must have some positives, right? But most of the skilled paddlers in wind that I know (and are indeed quite skilled with a GP) much prefer a large blade. The consnsus is, that the higher aspect GP blade does twist less in the wind; but the necessary force for strong ruddes/draws causes the GP to slip a lot vs stay anchored. On the balance, I know two who prefer the GP (I am talking about paddlers I know who are quite skilled in high wind), the rest do not.
Except- the twisting issue! There came a point where tradition was really suspect. The traditional diameters of standard paddles. GP’s handle sizes should be scaled to the paddler, including diameter. Often, the diameter of a GP is larger than most manufactured paddles. One thing led to another, and around here, many started adding firm padding to their standard paddles to increase diameter. While it is only emperic, the overwhelming consensus was that the paddle was easier to control in wind. There is scientific evidence for this- there are studies involving the use of hand tools, torque, and grip diameter (hmmm, anywone play tennis? My wife tells me they try to fit handle diameter to a persons hand, to reduce injuries). What is interesting about the studies, is how much larger optimum diameter is compared to most paddles. Kinda makes sense, overall. It is not really the purchase, or drag of the blade in the wind that bothers most, it is the twisting. Larger handle diameter should make it easier for the paddler to resist torque, right?
Curious about what a lot of GP users have for loom diameter. Around here, on custom paddles, the great majority of GP users have handles larger than nearly all manufactured paddles. On my GP, my thumb just touches my fingers when wrapped on the loom. On my rough water standard paddles, I increased the diameter to match. IMO, much easier to hold onto.
Provocative thought, no?
karl
And “No free Lunch” and
"Pick your Poison"
Very interesting about Romany LV. Would not have thought the LV would be that different since the hull is supposedly same as normal Romany, but I suppose deck is cut down affecting freeboard. Shows how little changes can make a big differences, boats are a series of compromises, and every paddler paddles a different boat.
Agree, and thanks,
Sensitivity training is working…but I’m drawing the line at journals and group hugs!
re-think that
The group might be all wimmen…might be a great time for a group hug 
not sure about the journel thing tho
Best Wishes
Roy
this belongs on the
"sounds like sex" thread
Lagavulin spoken here NM
It is a provacative thought, one in
which I’ve not considered. Here’s an anecdote for you, I vastly prefer my Lendal paddles to anything out there in wind as the shaft feels larger and the indexing rib moreso. The Toksook also has a fat shaft with a nice indexing rib. I consider the blade profile nice but not the cure all elixir Mr DH promotes. My GP’s mostly have looms that I made to fit my large hands and are really nice in windy times, but I still prefer my Lendals.
Dogmaticus
Got both
I have the extremes. Pintail and Outer Island. Tracker and “playful”. Playful can be a nightmare if your skeg jams. Playful can be fun too. Often in tough winds I turn on top of a wave with the OI and I can pull it just about 90 degrees with a lean and sweep.
In my neck of the woods 30 mph winds with higher gusts can stop you in your tracks no matter how strong you are. We got caught in higher winds once and some of the group could not make progress. It was a stupid mistake and we finally all got in.
Getting pinned sideways to the wind is one of those rare instances that does happen when everything is in the exact wrong place as far as waves, wind, current and intended direction. I never read or heard of any boat that has that characteristic. Matt - too bad you didn’t give the skeg a try it would have been interesting if you turned into or away from the wind.
high winds, lee and weather cocking
I feel your pain--I paddle a Tempest 170, a similar design to an Explorer and have twice been in high winds where leecocking was a significant problem. Both times the boat was empty except for me--I have noticed when the boat is loaded down it handles better. The first time the boat was pinned to leeward--I could not get it to head into the wind for love or money--breeze was 25-30knots(I would have sworn 50) Wave height 3-4 feet Solution was to go crosswind to the lee of an island then head up to my destination. I later learned that bow ruddering on the upwind side following a downwind forward sweep on the opposite side and keeping your skeg up is the best way to deal with lee cocking. As stated above, constant bow ruddering can lead to exhaustion, which is why I try to avoid winds over 25 knots--Second time was a year later--I was able to keep on course with the cross draw/bow ruddering technique but it was extremely tiring---when one of our party got pinned and had to paddle down wind I was glad to follow--simply rode the wind down to a point where it diminished in the lee of an island again then paddled home. In both of the above cases the high winds were not predicted. I've not have a sigficant problem with weather cocking(yet)
I can’t keep up with your brains
but I have a friend who paddles with Greenland paddles. When the wind picks up he switches to his storm paddle, especially for paddling into the wind or when the wind is coming from a front quarter.
Based on my observation and this discussion I am assuming there are two advantages to a storm paddle. 1 - there is less paddle in the wind on the non-water side because of the sliding grip used.
2 - when using a sliding grip one of the paddle blades becomes a ‘loom’. This increases the diameter (and makes it more oval than round). My friends blades are of a width that allows him to grip the blade with one edge in the webbing of his thumb and the crook of his middle knuckle. I imagine this helps with torque control.
Disclaimer - my friend says the only practical use he has found for a storm paddle is paddling into the wind.
“prefer a large blade"
With all your other great info - hard to understand you buying into myths about GPs being smaller or having less bite than euros. Please don’t tell me you think they’re used low angle too! L
My most used GP - a rather standard 3.5” wide bladed Superior Carbon - has about the same blade area as the Werner San Juan it replaced - which (was) a pretty big bladed euro!
I have others smaller. My current favorite in wind is an Aleut with just 3" wide blades. That one seems to defy most common wisdom about paddles though.
Yeah, stuff for other threads, but this one’s already jumped the shark so what the hey…
Islay
among my favorite sources…
Totally agree
A lot of the discussion of wind speed is just mental masturbation. Maybe there is a trophy for the person who can paddle in the strongest wind.
What really counts is knowing what the water conditions will be like when the weather report says the wind is xx gusting to xy (note the subtle reference to macho chromosomes;-).
Of course part of understanding the conditions is local knowledge and the local wind can vary considerably from what is reported. So the Beaufort scale and powers of observation are important. If an anemometer helps you understand the conditions, go for it.
Romany LV Cockpit Location
Anyone know if the Romany LV has the cockpit about 2/3 back like the regular Romany, or is it more centered like in the Explorer? If the cockpit has been more centered in the LV, that alone could make a huge in its handling in wind. Have seen a regular Romany capsize in wind because coming over the top of a wave, the bow just got shoved over fast and the paddler was still unstable from having just rolled up. Day paddle, so there wasn’t a lot of trim up there.
Otterslide, Gordon Brown’s book…
…talks about ‘high wind’ turns to get the boat facing upwind. I’m not sure what his definition of that is because it doesn’t sound like he’s talking about a ‘pinned’ situation. My best description of his technique is to reverse into the wind as fast as possible, do a couple short first segment reverse sweeps/crunches on the side you want the bow to turn to followed by a forward brace (on the opposite side as the short reverse sweeps, of course) and hold this as reward momentum slows, the forward brace which will continue to bring the bow around until reward momentum stops. Convert this forward brace to a front segment forward sweep as you ‘lift yourself from the water’, (? that doesn’t sound helpful in strong winds–maybe I’m misinterpreting it…) immediately followed by the opposite side reverse sweep/crunch. Continue this short reverse sweep/crunch and short forward sweep until completely around into the wind.
What are your thoughts on that technique?
btt…
Responses…
First, not sure why everyone here has such a hard time accepting the fact that perhaps my claim about the wind speed is true. Why the assumption that I am some newb who assumes that 20 knot winds are a gale?
It was based on whether observations from the internet, forecasts and observed conditions. I have lived in MD for about 18 months and this is hands down the windiest day I have experienced here (and trust me I wait for the windy days to get my boat out on the water).
I have paddled in dozens of days with 20-30 knot winds and this day was of a completely different caliber.
To quote Grey above (thanks for the support):
“I live near where Matt was paddling. We lost many trees that day, and whilst we were out walking the dogs in the wood. there were some fairly sustained gusts that really scared us that a tree may fall onto us. I spent my youth windsurfing and developed a fairly good sense of wind speed. 40-50 knts is not an unreasonable estimate that day, particularly the gusts.”
So…fish story dispelled let me say this.
The point of my post was to ask about why a boat experiences much different behavior than “normal” when the winds reach a certain threshold…approximately 30 knots.
I think that a few caught this and others did not. Thanks for the extremely helpful responses above which really help to explain this better for me.
One poster abovre really captured what I am talking about. Seems that in most windy conditions up to about 25 knots or so a boat wants to turn up into the wind (and yes I do understand why); however once the winds get to a level at or above 30 knots the handling of the boat changes dramatically. This is what I had observed on other occasions in the past. Now I understand it better.
Again, thanks for the response. I have learned a lot from your replies.
Matt
Th
Otterslide or other, comments on…
…Gordon Brown’s ‘high wind’ technique please:
…Gordon Brown’s ‘Sea Kayak’ talks about ‘high wind’ turns to get the boat facing upwind. I’m not sure what his definition of that is because it doesn’t sound like he’s talking about a ‘pinned’ situation. My best description of his technique is to reverse into the wind as fast as possible, do a couple short first segment reverse sweeps/crunches on the side you want the bow to turn to followed by a forward brace (on the opposite side as the short reverse sweeps, of course) and hold this as reward momentum slows, the forward brace which will continue to bring the bow around until reward momentum stops. Convert this forward brace to a front segment forward sweep as you ‘lift yourself from the water’, (? that doesn’t sound helpful in strong winds–maybe I’m misinterpreting it…) immediately followed by the opposite side reverse sweep/crunch. Continue this short reverse sweep/crunch and short forward sweep until completely around into the wind.
What are your thoughts on that technique?
I already posted this above, but I think it got lost in the list even though I ‘btt’d’ it.
sigh
OK, a response to both.
To start, I have observed that sea boaters are as bad as surfers, ice climbers, and ski mountaineers when it comes to exaggerating the real environment. Respectively, wind speed, wave height, and slope angle.
But, while it is possible that Matt was not in 40-45kn wind, that was not important (I have paddled in measured 40+kn back when I thought I was badass and convinced myself it was fun, and there is a diagnostic feature of Force 9, and somewhat in Force 8- the spray off the wave tops HURTS, it feels like a firehose and almost felt like it would peel skin- we always stayed pointed downwind and protected the backs of our necks!). What was important is that his description of the kayaks behavior indicated at least Force 6, and far more likely Force 7 or 8. Thus, his inquiry was quite valid.
My response was based on that scenario. There are a multitude of tactics for turning in wind (especially upwind), based upon- 1)boat design (and length), paddler strength, wind speed, and surface texture. A recently developed sea breeze at Force 6 will not have built as much waves as a frontal wind (more duration, bigger waves). But at 7, and certainly 8, the waves get big enough real fast.
The tactic in Browns book is certainly valid, but I feel needs qualification. It is not unlike a drill I make my student perform in Force4/5, especially if the sea is not fully developed. There is a point for every paddler when the force of the wind on the boat is greater than their muscular strength can overcome. At that point, one of the first things to try (note that in Brown, this was specifically for a boat held downwind) is partial sweeps. Imagine this- the boat has wind coming towards the right bow. When a full sweep is no longer effective at turning into the wind, do half sweeps (with a lot of edge!) at the bow- every sweep will only partially move the boat's bow into the wind, but the sweep will also hold that end enough for the wind to push the back downwind. Once the boat is directly into the wind, for moment a full sweep will work, but when the left side of the boat is exposed, either a stern draw on the left, or more likely a half reverse sweep (stern pry) on the downwind side- same thing will happen, there will be small movement of the stern from available muscle power, the wind will push the bow downwind. Using this method, it can be possible to spin 360degrees, where full sweeps would have failed. Note that when the boat is perpendicular, still turning clockwise, it may be necessary to experiment with what works better at the stern, a draw, or pry on the opposite side. Wave size, personal strength and comfort will determine. And when the boat is facing downwind, hopefully you will have figured out what is necessary.
When the wind increases to the point where this no longer works (that tactic is very similar to the tactic used in Brown), two things may be at work. The wind pushes harder on one end than any available paddler strength can overcome; much more likely (and as stated in my original suggestion) is that the waves lift up and expose so much bow or stern, that that end will blow back downwind violently.
My suggestion is to first get any available help from by inducing weatherhelm- when Brown focusses on holding the bow sweep, it is to allow the stern to be pivoted downwind. If the boat is also looser in the stern due to forward momentum, it will only help! Much better than a non-moving boat (CLR or pivot point farther forward in a forward moving boat). It does take some time and space for this upwind turn to be successful.
The biggest difference is that Brown advocates holding the front end with a bow sweep and heavy edge. In some wind, good, but enough wind and- realize that you are doing this set up downwind!!! A major difference in my suggestion is, when the bow is rising up on a wave, to prevent it from being blown downwind, pushing it upwind from a downwind body position is risky; I advocate a bow rudder, bow draw (or cross bow draw, there is an interesting advantage to doing this). This puts you braced into the wind and the wave, not downwave as in Brown.
I once was in the position as described in Brown (a valid tactic, just not the only way), and when the bow was being raised up by the wind wave, the wind strength was so much that the boat slammed back into my head! Now, I am considered a very srong paddler, and was pulling as hard as I could, but the wind strength was just silly. When I rolled back up- upwind, of course- it was almost reactive to slide my finish forward into a bow rudder to try and keep things going!
Perhaps not wasted
Envy, your comment about the time wasted paddling without a rudder is…curious. I would suggest that you learned ability to keep a boat straight before putting the rudder back on might have made you a better paddler!
I coach a kids development flatwater race program. The new kids I get every year are put into a boat called TK-1, or “mini”. These are race development trainers, and they do not have rudders! The ability to balance a boat’s tracking, and understand the paddlers strokes effect, is fundamental to their development. I have observed that quite a few of the multi sport racers who buy surf skis and fast sea kayaks with rudders, often have really poor forward strokes.
Even with my advanced kids, especially when coaching starts, I put back into rudderless boats occasionally. Take a rudder off a typically stern rockerd, bow-down trimmed K-1 and try to keep it straight. When my kids do, that means they don’t have garbage strokes.
karl