missing the point
No one said Event isn’t waterproof.
I don’t know about other manufacturers using Goretex, but Kokatat’s customer service is top notch. Additionally, Gore requires testing of garments made of Goretex to ensure they meet certain standards.
Wear what you want, but you can step off with the attitude.
To Sitka
– Last Updated: Oct-07-11 12:09 AM EST –
If you would simply read the above posts instead of accusing me of having an attitude, you would see that someone questioned how waterproof eVent is. So drop your attitude.
I will stick to the findings that were measured by scientific means, and not all the marketing hype.
I keep wondering why people brag how often they make a return to Kokatat in exchange for a refurbished suit.
What defects cause all these returns?
Get a pee zip if you get a dry suit.
It can be quite inconvenient to try to quickly get your head and arms out of a non-pee zip dry suit to relieve yourself.
The dry suit I bought last spring doesn’t have a relief zip and I haven’t used it yet.
Can a pee zip be retrofitted to a dry suit?
pee zip
Yes, a pee zip can be added. Kokatat will add a front relief zip for about $125.
Reality
It’s not just about comfort, cold water can kill you. Every paddler goes through the financial dilemma and many, myself included go the farmer john / dry top route to start. Nobody goes back to neoprene once they own a dry suit. If you get a farmer john, just remember that If you ever swim, it will save your life but you will not be a happy person. The farmer john will only buy you time till you get back into your boat.
I have an article on this here:
http://www.outer-island.com/FarmerJohnFallacy.html
A happy user of eVent
"Try to find waterproofness data on eVent. There’s none on their site and I haven’t been able to find anything online, either. "
I have a dry bag with eVent. It’s been waterproof for a few years now. Dry bag live a pretty rough life, getting squeezed into hatches, caught on obstructions and yanked out. So far, no seep.
I was initially skeptical about the durability of it. But a buddy who does month long expedition back to back had used it for several years and had no issue. That’s when I decided to buy in.
"Considering that eVent isn’t much cheaper than Gore-Tex, where’s the value? "
My experience is different, I do find eVent stuff less expensive.
“With no warranty and no waterproofness data, it makes me wonder what they’re hiding?”
Maybe they’re too busy making the material than smarting up their website?
kokatat- sold it- gym is better
I paid big bucks for kokatat but hated the tight neck and wrist gaskets. To keep out water you must go really tight and it is no fun. In 50 degree water and air my nrs wetsuit is buys me a couple minutes. In winter I prefer the indoor running track or cutting wod with bro or go to gym with friends.
Those who paddle in novemeber in the great lakes can die. I have been rescued from st lawrence river in novemeber when paddle blew away. Maybe God never intended us to challenege winter. The inuit villages lost many of the best every year. When in doubt XC ski
AGLOOLIK loves winter, dave
He lives beneath the ice, protects the inuit and helps them on hunts. You would know this if you didn’t just assume there was only one god and one faith for everyone.
Dry Suit
That far north, you almost have to think drysuit, but there are some cases where a wetsuit+drytop would be fine. Especially if you have a reliable roll.
Wetsuits do have some advantages. They typically offer better insulating properties and a small rip of tear doesn’t cause a dramatic failure. Punhc a 1 inch hole in a wetsuit and it hardly affects the performance at all. Punch a 1 inch hole in a drysuit and it’s little more than a windbreaker.
Wetsuits also require very little maintenance compared to drysuits. Wash it every now and then and make sure the zipper is smooth and you are good. With a drysuit, you have 3 or 5 latex gaskets that dry out and tear over time and you really ought to test it on a regular basis to make sure there are no leaks.
Wetsuits are also easier to swim in. If you forget to burp a drysuit, you get all michelin man. Even burped, they are loose and add resistance to a swim.
If you learn and practice self rescue skills in cold water and rough conditions, your time in the water can be easily under 5 minutes for an unexpected swim. Under 30 seconds for a roll. So you can get away with a wetsuit + drytop even that far north.
For most folks, I would still say drytop for the great lakes region. They are very convenient and you can find a used one fairly cheap and have it serviced. Go with a Kokatat if you can…
Better insulating?
– Last Updated: Oct-07-11 6:18 PM EST –
No - at least not as a blanket statement.
The correct comparison is not between just a dry suit and a wetsuit, but between a dry suit with a layer or two under it and wet suit. In that comparison, talking about a typical a paddling wet suit, the drysuit wins once you get to water temps towards 40 degrees. It can even be more comfortable in cold water/warm air situations, because the thickness of wetsuit that is needed to handle the water temps can turn into a sweat box if it isn't wet.
Of course any of this that doesn't include the head, hands and feet is silly anyway. There is not much advantage to having a warm core temperature if you can't think straight or hold onto the deck rigging with your hands.
Or you can just keep piling it on - wetsuit over a hydroskin top with a neo jacket, or warm rashguard under the higher end neo tops under a dry top.... hence my comment about being able to outfit the entire neighborhood (tho' my stuff has come in handy for training sessions for newer paddlers at times, to handle the gurls)
The exception to all of this is the better full body wet suits used bu surfers, made with different thicknesses to protect the core of the body and the extremities effectively. But at that point you are talking costs closer to the price range that the OPer said they wanted to avoid. I suspect that is not what they had in mind.
I am not talking through my hat here, nor are most of the others from the northeast I see that replied. I have waded into 36 degree water and dunked my head under before winter paddles so I knew what I was looking at in any capsize. When my roll was newer I would religiously at least scull, usually roll in whatever I was paddling in as long as I could possibly take it. By under 40 degree water the only thing that would get in front of a wicked ice cream headache from even one roll was an ice cap and goggles. The frozen lips were annoying but not a safety issue.
I know that there are people who paddle in the winter relying on wet suit/dry top combo. But with the occasional exception of paddlers from Alaske, most of them including some who weighed in above are paddling in larger bodies of water that tend to stay about the same temperature as late spring in Maine waters year round, in the lower 50's. The upper peninsula of Michigan is a very different situation.
There are stories of catastrophic failures in drysuits that have resulted in hypothermia, I know of one such situation in Nova Scotia a few years ago. But those instances are much, much in the minority among all those who use dry suits.
As far as issues with too much air, it doesn't take more than someone's first time out to figure out how to burp the suit.
hmm
Not in winter on Lake Superior. You will be too cold in a 5 minute swim in Superior with a drytop/wetsuit. I’ve seen it happen. His day was done; mine kept going. Now I suppose if you’re decked out in one of those suits the surfers wear, maybe. They do it.
Drysuit
Get a drysuit, you won’t regret it. Here’s somethings that I put together about the subject: http://www.paddlinglight.com/articles/wetsuit-vs-drysuit-for-paddling/
NRS drysuit
just popped up on the local board. not mine, but thought i’d pass it on since it’s a brand new suit at a good price.
http://www.rapidsriders.net/forum/read.php?3,15120
why haven’t you capsized?
it’s worth knowing what the water feels like
thank you for that
forgot when you wrote it but when I started colder water paddling in SF.Bay it was pretty obvious that bare armpits, neck and head were contradictory to retaining heat when immersed for more than ten minutes. I
I started wearing a 3mm neoprene vest with short lycra sleeves and collar when I first got a farmer john. It still allowed some cold water to the pits and neck but the extra 3mm helped a lot. I tried floating around with dry top, farmer john, 3mm vest and other heavy lycra/poly shirts but after 20min in the water the top is fully filled with water and the arms/pits/neck start losing heat
Fuzzy rubber appears to be back and it is one of the better backups for head gear.
Same issue holds for dry suit wearers, if the water is truly cold then very cold water on the head and hands reduces the ability to self-rescue, even though ones body is toasty warm.
If you get a wet suit
do NOT get a farmer john and pair it with a splash jacket. Get a quality surfing wet suit with full length arms. It will not interfere with paddling strokes and will work for a reasonable length of time. A dry suit that fits you and has the right amount of insulating clothing inside will keep you warm longer while you are in the water. A windbreaker is a good thing to have for when you capsize in your wetsuit and get back in your boat when it is windy. Wet suit or dry suit get a neoprene hood for your head.
question
do you know of manufacturers of Event drysuits ? The nature of these suits is that they are exposed to lots of wear. I don’t think of any of these fabrics in an of themselves make a better suit since individual use can render up a failure where things are rubbed/flexed a lot. I think Event is great but I’d want to hear about another manufacturer coming through as well as Kokatat has.
You really don’t get it, do you?
– Last Updated: Oct-10-11 11:24 PM EST –
As with breathability, there are degrees of waterproofness, measured in how much pressure it takes to force water through the fabric. eVent doen't provide any comparative data. Why not?
What does its use in barometric pressure sensors have to do with its suitability for drysuits? Talk about "bogus obfuscation"!
Durability is much more than just the ruggedness of the outer layer, or the inner layer for that matter. It's how well the fabric holds up over time and exposure to the elements, sweat, skin oils, salt, sunscreen, etc.
The Gore warranty is on the fabric and it's beyond anything the manufacturer will do for a customer. Even if the manufacturer goes belly up, you're still covered. My dry suit was replaced even though the manufacturer (Stohlquist) doesn't make Gore-Tex suits anymore. Gore replaced it with a Kokatat suit. Not only that, but they replaced it with an Expedition, which was a model up from the comparable suit to my Stohly'. I wanted the Expedition and offered to pay the difference, but Gore refused to take my money. They just got me the suit I wanted at no charge. The best that Stohlquist offered was a discount on suit made with inferior fabric that wouldn't be covered under warranty if it failed.
As with any warranty, there are limitations. I haven't had a garment refused, but mine had clear delamination issues, they weren't worn out or damaged. Not everything is covered under warranty, not Gore's or anyone else's.
Your claim about special cleaning solutions is complete BS. All you need to use is powdered detergent. I have never used anything else and have never had a problem. You'd have to be a moron to use fabric softener on any shell garment, so it's pretty stupid to even mention it. Again, more "bogus obfuscation".
No one said breathabilty wasn't important, but it's not the only thing that matters. Contrary to your final ridiculous insinuation, Gore-Tex vs. eVent isn't a choice between being wet and dry. Gore-Tex breathes very well, thank you. That's been proven over the past 40 years (yeah, it's been around that long) and each generation has improved.
Dave, get a clue!
You can trim the seals until they’re comfortable and they still keep water out. It seems that everyone but you knows that.
Wet suit or dry suit???
Tired of fixing and maintaining latex gaskets, the baggy feeling, occasional leaks, air bubbles, and some sweating (ie: wet) even in gortex, i switched to full surfing wetsuits a few years ago. i never kept very warm in a drysuit even after years of trying different layering options.
surfing wetsuits these days are very flexible, affordable, sometimes as dry as a drysuit (depends on brand), very warm, and very low maintenance. I sea kayak, sup, and surf kayak (and waveski) in all condiitons in the Pacific NW. my also roll improved with a wetsuit. if you get a rip which are rare in a good suit, you don’t have an issue unlike a drysuit.
you can layer with a wetsuit. in strong winds below (windchill) 20F, I’ll add a paddling jacket over the suit, and wear a capeline top under the suit. Otherwise my Excel Infinity 4/3 does very well by itself. Suits such as that one keeps you actually 100% dry in your torso area even after consderable immersion. my suit is hoodless, so i wear a hooded neoprene vest over the suit which prevents water from getting down my neck. i can use the hooded vest without the full suit in warmer conditions too, nice to accessorize. for feet, i use 7mm booties, and glacier gloves for hands. the only issue with wetsuit is no pee zip. if folks tell you wetsuits aren’t warm enough - look at surfers. they’re fully immersed without a boat and are doing ok.
i recommend a good brand such as the wool line Patagonia’s, and others such as Excel Infinity series, O’Neil, Hotline, Mateuse, etc. I prefer 4/3 (4mm in chest; 3mm legs and arms) for paddling. 5/4 begins to get stiff in the shoulders and are mostly top entry only which may be difficult if you have shoulder or flexibility issues. cheers.