What do I lose by having a shorter boat?

#21

speed and initial stability
Three opinions here, mine is last…


Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed

and overall

length isn’t one of them.



=====================

That’s not what I have always read. I’ve always thought that for

boats with the same width

and load, length is the determining factor on speed.



***



me:



That’s what I read too. The question is how a recreational boat would be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read a bottom that makes for more initial stability also produces less speed. For example the Biscayne at 14’6" was rated a mere 3 out of 5 in speed when it was a Dagger Savannah…



http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?BoatType=TourKayak&BoatStatus=DC&BoatID=135



Yet it’s rated as fast by several reviewers…



“Just bought a Savannah Expedition model. Love it – fast, stable, tracks beautifully. Great fit for me. Paddle some rivers, some lakes, some of Great Lakes. When I demo’d 5 other boats the Savannah was the hands-down winner.”



http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=483

#22

More Factors Than Just Length
"That’s what I read too. The question is how a recreational boat would be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read a bottom that makes for more initial stability also produces less speed. For example the Biscayne at 14’6" was rated a mere 3 out of 5 in speed when it was a Dagger Savannah…"



Rec boats tend to be higher volume than touring boats. On a windy day, the more above the water surface, the more the boat gets worked by the wind. This affects the speed as well.



sing

#23

flat not fast
"Rec boats tend to be higher volume than touring boats. On a windy day, the more above the water surface, the more the boat gets worked by the wind. This affects the speed as well."



I think also it has to with the V shape, the deeper the faster. Flat is not fast. I see olympic kayaks round though…

#24

Narrow with round hull cross sections
That’s the recipe for speed. Of course, none of the boat’s you’re looking at are either.

#25

the answer is
OK, here I found some interesting comparison regarding speed…



“The speed I get from the Manitou is also good. Since I can’t accurately factor for wind, current and waves, all I can do is give my honest opinion/comparison which is that at my average cruising/daypaddling speed of 3.2-3.8 mph, the effort is no different between the Manitou and the QCC. The manitou starts to need a bit more effort at my workout pace which is around 3.8-4.5. After around 4.5 mph the bow seems to plunge a bit. I never could quite get 5 mph to show on the GPS, but then I don’t plan to race it, I just wanted to see if the manitou could keep up, and I think it does. For day paddling purposes, the Manitou performance, stability, and comfort is a 10.”



The QCC I believe are full size kayaks so go and figure.

#26

yep
"That’s the recipe for speed. Of course, none of the boat’s you’re looking at are either."



I see. Thanks!

#27

Apples and oranges
QCCs come in many shapes and sizes.



I have a Q700 and my average speed over say 10-20 miles out paddling by myself is 5 mph.



I guarantee you, over any amount of time, there is a HUGE difference in effort required to power a Manitou at 5mph average speed.



No difference at 3mph may sound like that means something, but what if you want to go faster? What if you need to to get out of a busy area? 3mph sucks for me! I can’t even begin to get into decent stroke mechanics/rhythm going that slow. Result is I’m more sore and tired going 3 mph for a few hours than after going 5 mph for same time. “Effort” at 3mph is also a joke. My 700 will go 3 on its own in a light breeze - or with very minimal paddling. Almost anything is pretty easy to paddle slow. It means nothing.



You need to paddle more and read less, because at this point you seem to think opinions matter more than physics. Just get a boat! You’ll sell it and/or get others soon anyway. How this one works out for you will help determine where to go next.

#28

Since you quote me…
The point I attempted to make in the part of my review that you posted here is that in a group paddle, not racing, you would likely be able to keep up with a boat the “…shape and size…” of a QCC 500. I even stated in the review that the Manitou gets tougher to paddle up near 5 mph. Hell, I’ve even discovered that in real heavy chop, into a good quartering wind, the Manitou may be even slightly easier to paddle at around 4 mph than the QCC 500 - when the 500 is completely empty. All things are relative. I’ve had days that I could do a 10 mile out and back the Manitou and average over 5 miles an hour, and feel pretty good afterwards. It is quite easy in the sound where I paddle, if you pick the right day, once you figure out wind, and tide current…stick to the shore line, and use eddies at shore protrusions up current, carve a wide u-turn, get into the main current, with wind, and surf the wakes of 40 ft boats on the way back. On the other hand, if you buy one of those Mainstream SOTs they sell at Boat US, you would find that there is a big difference between it and a Manitou at 3 mph over 10-20 miles. All things are relative. If you were asking for advice on speed the difference between a rec boat, and a top of the line touring boat, then that is “…apples and oranges”. Your question was about the speed difference, based on length, between 2 specific rec boats. Which on is faster? That’s easy! The one Greyak is in. ;>)

Serriously, of the two boats you seem conflicted about, I think you will find that both are fast enough for what a rec boat is intended, and neither will prove to be faster than the other in all situations, unless of course you only paddle in indoor swimming pools. You probably should get past the speed thing, and give considerations to other issues. Or hurry-up and buy one, before you miss any more fun.

#29

Stigma
I recently acquired a Manitou as my first kayak. My intentions were to get out on local lakes/rivers to exercise and unwind. After test-paddling several boats, I chose the Manitou for one main reason - I am a large dude. Many of the touring models were very difficult for me to enter/exit. The Manitou is light enough to hoist onto the top of my SUV and easy to carry from vehicle to shoreline. Price was not bad for an entry-level kayak (try to find a used/demo model). For my excursions, this boat is perfect. Easy to turn, hard to roll and it has plenty of room for a day/overnight trip. As for speed, I am sure a longer touring boat adds opportunity - just make sure it is not too much boat for you.

#30

my own boats
"Serriously, of the two boats you seem conflicted about, I think you will find that both are fast enough for what a rec boat is intended, and neither will prove to be faster than the other in all situations, unless of course you only paddle in indoor swimming pools. You probably should get past the speed thing, and give considerations to other issues. Or hurry-up and buy one, before you miss any more fun."



I got a Scrambler of my own, and a Drifer belonging to my wife. That’s my reference point.



WILL THE MANITOU BE MUCH FASTER THAN THE DRIFTER???

#31

capacity
"I recently acquired a Manitou as my first kayak."



How much you weigh? I’m 6’1", 230lb…

#32

What Will You Gain?
You will lose some top end speed.



You may, or may not, lose some low speed efficency.



But you will gain a boat that is easier to handle, load, and store when off the water.



And you will gain manuerverabilty for tight spots on the water, like rock gardens. And shorter boats handle better in surf launchs and landings.



As far as group paddles go, I have accepted the fact that there is no boat I can buy that will let me keep up with TsunamiChuck, unless he wants me to.

#33

In general speed (potentia) and tracking

– Last Updated: Jun-18-05 3:30 PM EST –

but I don't know these two boats. Personally I knew I wanted to be a sea kayaker from my first moment in a modren kayak. So the first bost I bought for myself sac a qcc q500 (used) which was fast enough in lo wind conditions) but a bit hgh volume for my needs. So I got a CD caribou. I never minded swimming at first and I still don't mind capsizing.

#34

FYI, DQ-V-W, SALLY PADDLED A MANITOU
on the Willamette in Portland last month.



Didn’t like it. Too slow. Had to work to keep up with me & and the guide in our respective Chatham 17 & 16 (or whatever numbers they were). And we weren’t particularly pushing it, not in the least. We were just enjoying the ride…



We both, as Greyak and others above have stated, graduated to narrow, more efficient, more or less ‘easily’ paddleable boats (ask Greyak & Grayhawk about our Isthmus) from where we started in a short, wide, stubby tandem SOT 7-8 years ago.



It’s probably just a composite matter of time and your enthusiasm for paddling, intersecting qith getting together with others on the water and sometimes marching to the beat of the group’s common denominator drummer…



Seems to happen to a significant percentage of us paddlers as we



PADDLE ON!



-Frank in Miami

#35

tarpon 160
Well, settled, I’ve tried the Manitou and it’s too small for me. Later I tried a Tarpon 160 and found it very nice. It’ll be my next boat. THANKS ALL!!!



Best Wishes

DonQuixote