try to arch your back more
If you really have your head in the water and are out at a big enough angle from the kayak, then you probably aren’t getting the kayak rotated far enough away from you. So you want to use your lower body to keep the boat more upright. If you arch your back then one of two things can happen - you go further under water but that will only occur if the boat is rotating upside down and that will only happen if your legs are not connected properly to move it away; - or arching your back makes the kayak move further upright which holds your lower body up and that in turn keeps your nose above water.
Overly analytical. It would really help to have someone stand on the opposite side of the kayak and hold the coaming so the kayak won’t rotate past 90 degrees. Then you can play with body and leg position until they don’t have to use any force.
The easiest kayak I ever had to balance brace was my Riot 007. Wide but with very tight leg connection and so floaty my hips wouldn’t sink.
“No PFD Required"
Some folks have it easy due to body composition -
Many skinny/muscular people sink without flotation.
Unless I keep my chest full of air I sink in fresh water. If I exhale half-way I beginning to sink.
I suppose in some boats one can rely on the boat to provide positive flotation, but with my 6’4” height, the lever that my trying to sink torso puts along the long axis of the boat is too much and I would have very hard toime balance bracing and with the slightest move would sink.
So, PFD for me -
Have we ever met?
Have you ever seen a photo of me?
You're making some very bad assumptions about body fat percentage and composition.
Granted, I have more weight in the bottom half than the top half. Granted, wearing a drysuit provides some flotation, as does a wetsuit.
But I've done balance braces wearing plain ol' non-immersion clothing, too, and there's very little extra fat on my upper body. I also do balance braces in my Jackson Sidekick (kid's WW kayak), for which I am in the upper end of the recommended weight range. Did some yesterday in it wearing a shorty 2mm wetsuit, no PFD, Euro paddle. It is a bit more difficult to do than with the Tempest 165 or Explorer LV, but still quite doable using the technique I described earlier.
I don't think Dubside has much extra fat, either. Maybe you should run your notions by him.
Also, doesn't everybody start sinking if they exhale? I sure do. But once I've attained the balance brace position, I can breathe in and out normally. It does help to keep lots of air in while *slipping into* that position.
A “-;)” was promptly included
in my previous message. As for body composition, I don’t care one way or another on a personal level and only mention it because I believe it makes a difference for this discussion and the advice whether a PFD is needed or not. Of course, one can balance brace without a PFD but a PFD makes things easier and without it I need to do some sort of sculling to get into a position and stay in it after that.
Without a PFD, if I start with the kayak upside down, I stay upside down (unless I make some moves to right myself up). With the PFD I just float-up and transition to lay into a balance brace without making any effort (other than twist in the right position).
So, can you float without sinking in fresh water? It does not matter where your weight is concentrated for that exercise - you either float or you sink. If you float, you will balance brace easier. If you don’t, you need a PFD to help you, especially with a boat that is not particularly “helpful”.
My point was that like me, many people can only float if we keep our lungs inflated and if we exhale we sink under water. My younger daugther in contrast is slender but her body composition is such that she floats without thinking about it or making an effort. This will obviously make a difference in how easy one balance braces…
Have someone help you
It sounds like you are not using your lower hip and leg to hold that side of the boat up. Maybe your upper leg is even fighting the lower leg’s efforts without your realizing it. You need flexibility in the hip and lower back for these things to come together.
Hard to know just from text posts.
Balance Brace
You have received some good advice. At the risk of repeating some advice and conflicting with other advice, here is my input. For clarity, these instructions assume that you are doing the maneuver on your right side.
- You need to get your back FLAT on the water. Do this by a strong torso rotation. You can also shift around in the cockpit so you are sitting somewhat on the side of the seat. Most people don’t rotate enough.
- Capsize onto your back with your elbows close to your sides (to avoid shoulder injury).
TIP - a transition happens when your back hits the water; you change pressure from the upper to the lower (right) leg. Your lower (right) leg should be straight with your foot pressing on the footpeg. Pushing with this leg helps you to turn your torso even more (to get your back flat). The upper (left) leg is dead weight at this point. I prefer to just drop it down on the lower leg.
- Arch your back – this means that you should lift your chest and accentuate the curve at the small of your back. If done properly this will prevent a capsize. Your face and body may sink slightly under water and then will rebound upward. Arching your back is what “pushes the kayak away from you”. In other words the pressure helps to keep the kayak fairly flat on the water. This is critical. During the exercise you need to keep this isometric pressure against the kayak at all times. If you stop, and if the seam of the kayak becomes vertical, or more, the kayak will simply push your torso under water. You must find the balance point.
NOTES
The key is to simply get your body and kayak in the “proper” position, while you exert pressure on the kayak that helps it to stay relatively flat on the water. A picture from the Qajaq USA archives might help, here’s one: http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/TechniqueForumArchive0_config.pl?review=833 .
If you go to the Qajaq USA forums (http://www.qajaqusa.org) and also read through the archives there, you will find a lot of content.
I’m not an advocate of starting a balance brace by sliding off the rear deck. You need to get your back flat on the water and away from the kayak (requires commitment).
Hip pads can make this more difficult. You want your weight as low to the water as possible. Think that you are molten lead and want to flow into the water (in other words – any body part that is held high above the water is making this technique more difficult). Hip pads keep your lower body lifted high above the water when the kayak is on its side.
Learning to scull/balance brace is the key to understanding advanced Greenland technique. A good instructor could probably have you doing this in an hour or less.
Some round-bilged kayaks do make this more challenging. That said, it’s always dangerous to blame your kayak (or your body type). It took me weeks to learn this (in an Anas Acuta) back in the late 1980’s because I had never seen it done in a commercial kayak. At the time some naysayers swore it could only be done in a ultra-low volume SOF Greenland kayak. Now it’s considered a common skill. Have faith.
Greg Stamer
Why start with the kayak upside down?
It’s not necessary to learn that way. Makes a good exercise to roll it back up after doing the balance brace and then deliberately using the upper leg to flop it upside-down.
I didn’t say the PFD was useless; I said it was not necessary.
I cannot float in fresh water OR salt water without sinking, unless I keep lots of air in my lungs or move legs and arms. In other words, I have to either tread water or swim. With a drysuit on or PFD on, I can float without working for it. With a full wetsuit on, I still have to “help” a little.
You said, “My point was that like me, many people can only float if we keep our lungs inflated and if we exhale we sink under water. My younger daugther in contrast is slender but her body composition is such that she floats without thinking about it or making an effort. This will obviously make a difference in how easy one balance braces…”
I am saying that I too sink like a stone if I don’t tread or swim. But I can do balance braces without wearing a PFD. I contend that technique might make the difference. Your daughter is like I was before 13 years: skinny but not muscular. Then I started hiking and biking, and puberty hit. That’s when I began sinking in the water.
Just because something is hard or impossible for one person does not mean it is for other people, even lean, muscular people.
Question
You said, “I’m not an advocate of starting a balance brace by sliding off the rear deck. You need to get your back flat on the water and away from the kayak (requires commitment).”
Do you not advocate sliding and twisting down because it doesn’t force the commitment immediately, or for some other reason? I extend away from the kayak and try to attain 90 degrees to it with my upper body (both arms on the water and extended out from me).
Haven’t tried just flopping down like you described…something to do next time out.
Balance Brace
To add to what Greg said…FLAT on the water.
a way to cheat for learning is to swivel around so that you are sitting as sideways as possible…then rotate your body a little more…arch your back (extremely) and fall over backwards smacking the water already in a arched position…
this stops you from sinking at all and makes use of the surface tension to aid in time to get into exact position.
I , unlike Greg , don’t use my lower leg on the foot peg. my boat is padded down, so there is very little movement need to contact the thigh brace. I can move under them sideways, but not have to reach up with my leg for them.
I use my hip and thigh on the lower “Water” leg to hold the boat…and use the very tip of my toe on the other (Top) leg to balance the pressure…use as few muscles as possible and relax.
I’m build a little different than Greg, and my style is slightly different because, I too am a sinker
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/4149311913_dfb1c30cdd_m.jpg
Best Wishes
Roy
sliding
off the back deck is a more difficult way to learn …after you get it…it becomes easy
but not at the beginning of the learning process.
I know that you asked Greg…so …sorry if I’m stepping on any toes
Best wishes
Roy
I too
sink...but can Balance brace without a PFD or a Tuilik or a wet or dry suit....it's more about flexability and correct position
(BUT NOT in all boats)
Best Wishes
Roy
sliding off…
I don’t advocate starting on the rear deck because many students remain plastered to the rear deck or otherwise keep their body too close to the kayak. Also, I don’t necessarily strive to have my body perpendicular to the kayak, it’s a bit in the rear quadrant. Having said all that, if it helps someone to learn by starting on the aft deck, then by all means continue, but I recommend working on the method that I described as well, in time.
One of the biggest practical uses of the balance brace/side scull is to prevent a capsize without stressing your body/shoulder. To do that you need to practice this without the crutch of starting on the rear deck. The harder you hit the water, the more support you get – but just be careful to keep your elbows in or you could injure your shoulder.
I didn’t mention in my post that one of the biggest errors that I see is that people seem to think that the paddle must be perpendicular to the kayak. The paddle should follow the line of your shoulders which will put the paddle somewhere into the forward quadrant.
Greg Stamer
Interesting
I thought it was an easy way to learn, but then again I didn’t try it the other way so have no real basis for comparison.
Greg’s comment about the control moving from the upper leg to the lower one makes we want to try it out and see for myself which feels more natural.
I remember that initially my PFD felt like it was getting in the way as I slid and twisted down but later it didn’t matter whether I wore it or not. So I think flexibility may have improved.
Thanks for the clarification
Yeah, I don’t actually get to 90 degrees out from the kayak; I don’t want to come out of the seat enough to lose leg contact. But I get farther away from the boat if I “think perpendicular.” And that allows me to relax more, ironically.
There’s an exercise that involves simulating a failed low brace and instantly transitioning to a high brace while turning the back flat to the water. The instructor pointed out that the back hitting the water squarely flat would help prevent the boat from capsizing. I’m thinking that attaining the static brace position in the way you described might make that move more instinctive.
Well, that was interesting today
When I flopped down with back onto the water directly instead of sliding down via the back deck, two different things happened depending on how I was holding the paddle.
The kayak did not capsize in either case, which surprised me a little. It went up on edge but then settled to its upright position.
In the first situation, I held the (Euro) paddle lightly in the middle of the shaft with one hand, as if I were already in the balance brace but with both elbows bent. I simply twisted/plopped onto the water and the kayak returned to upright after it tilted a little. Then all I did was stretch arms out and relax. Felt like the kayak did not tilt severely as I went down so I guess my back was already arched.
In the second variation, I held the paddle with both hands in their normal positions. This time when I dropped down, my back slapped the water harder, the boat felt like it tilted more, and I instantly gave the paddle a short sweeping high brace (it never went past 90 degrees out) and ended up with head on the back deck as if I’d just finished a roll! I tried it again to see what’d happen if I didn’t move the paddle at all but the same thing happened. I couldn’t keep from instantly sweeping the paddle when I felt the boat tilt. I don’t know if it was a matter of more severe tilt, or of having the paddle in both hands in the “ready” position.
Balance brace in an Impexx Force 4
Just wanted to mention one thing again - my memory is a little fuzzy but I think the Force boats have a similar profile to my Vela. That is, the side of the boat is not perpendicular to the ground like in the Romany, but tilt in so is it less than 90 degrees (or more depending on which angle you take).
In that case, you may need to crank the boat away from you noticeably. As mentioned above, the Romany/Explorer make this ridiculously easy - all you have to do is relax and the boat will settle correctly itself. That extra crank I need for the Vela and perhaps you need for the Force 4 is not easy when you are already twisted with back to the water. One thing that makes a balance brace work is being physically relaxed - the more tension, the less buoyant I am. So adding crank that my back doesn’t always like is not helpful.
I am skeptical about the volume mattering. I can get to this position as easily in the too-big-for-me Romany or Explorer as from my probably-small-for-me Inazone 220. All three of these boats have a marked settle point at 90 degrees - I think that’s what makes the most diff.
That said, once you get it you get it. There may be days when it is less manageable, but the basic technique is not nearly as fugitive as a roll is the first year or so. Do you know anyone who has a Romany or Explorer you could try this with? Seriously, you may be able to get the feeling from something that makes it relatively easy, then transfer that to the Force 4.
I can’t always be too Raggedy
I mix and match whether I flop over already in position or I get there from a scull - my sculling needs refresher work on both sides right now so lately my best bet is to flop over - but grabbing the back of the boat doesn't produce any different result than sliding off. It just helps get the rotation that my back doesn't always want to give.
It is a help in setting up, pretty much the same warm up that you'd do in a boat for help in torso rotation for a forward stroke. It gets me into a position where I can just flop over and be in a successful position already. Since there is general agreement on the final position (back to the water and arched and floating), I don't quite get why it has garnered the attention in this thread that it has.
Exactly
I’ve got the same problem with my Vela. Great boat, I can roll it (storm roll preferred), but doing this balance brace thing is for me a perfect way to get drowned. Maybe I’m not flexible enough…
good tip
I was in reasonably warm water yesterday for the first time in months - I took my daughter to a pond to try out her new Sea Flea - and I had a chance to try a bit of this stuff. I had not previously paid much attention to my in-the-water thigh, and pulling the boat up with that leg definitely made the Pintail easier for me to balance brace. I think I need to get back to stretching, as i remember having better flexibility the last time I was playing around with this stuff.
Nate
learned this just yesterday
the morning of the final day of symposium. I’d never tried the balance brace before and it was on my “list” of goals for the weekend.
My instructor was Doug Van Doren, a very fine Greenland paddler & notable longtime instructor. He is really amazing, calm, very confidence inspiring, precise and reassuring but not verbose and confusing.
Here’s how we did it:
We talked a few minutes about flexibility. I showed him the range of my torso twist (shoulders parallel to the bow) on both sides. He said everyone has a dominant side which is not necessarily based on whether they are righthanded or lefthanded. My sides were about equal but since I would hold the paddle in my right hand we decided I would drop off the right side of the boat.
And how far I could bend back from the cockpit (sitting on seat & arching back over coaming). I have been doing that for years, so I could touch the back of my head and part of my upper back to the back deck.
The boat I used is my trusty low volume North Shore Shoreline Fuego. The aft deck is something like 7.5 inches high.
We didn’t use a paddlefloat or anything, but went right for it. He showed me the hand position for my left hand (across and under the boat) and my right (outstretched and empty, for now).
For a few times DVD lowered me into the water while I maintained the boat nearly upright w. my lower leg. The upper leg stayed flat on the boat bottom barely on the peg. He had me arch my back and breath in a relaxed way. He gradually gave less and less support til I was floating on my own. I couldn’t even tell when he stopped supporting me.
I had plenty of time to talk, count his fingers, roll my neck, etc. It was a nice relaxing float until I thought too much about it, and then my neck tensed, so I needed an assist to get up! If I had stayed relaxed I could’ve done it.
The he had me arch even more and snap the lower leg to come up over the back deck, like finishing the roll. No sliding over the back deck in the approach or the recovery. The light went on in my head and I was much more relaxed in the water and getting up on my own, while he was there just in case.
By the fourth try I had my greenland paddle in my right hand, held so that my palm would be up when in the water, cradling the loom. I made the full committed “plop” into the water. No sliding off the back deck.
most of my head submerged for a split second but my nose stayed above water. I skipped wearing nose plugs, they weren’t needed. A loose neck, an arched back and a torso at complete rest are all key elements.
The Fuego stayed in position, rock solid. This boat is so good for skills development. So I got a little more confidence and was able to plop in and come out on my own.
The lesson was 15-20 minutes total and I got it.
It will need to be practiced, esp. the recovery move. I’m confident I learned great technique so now it is muscle memory and the ability to relax.