What makes for a good rough water boat?

@Monkeyhead said:
…(due in part to a max ebb tide). … I mean a boat that minimizes the anxiety of a moderately skilled, experienced paddler (but most experience in bays, estuaries, and other relatively protected waters) who finds him/herself paddling back home through especially confused chaotic waves, and/or moving water waves (not necessarily surfing).

It sounds more like raise the skill level and rough water experience of the paddler rather than the hardware. Certainly more training and experience in those conditions would make you more comfortable. Better management of time and planning might alieve some of the tide problems.

Always trying to raise the skill level Overstreet. Been salt water paddling for 30 years, have taken numerous classes, etc., including some this last weekend. I was playfully mocked in another thread for only having had 3 boats in 30 years. I’m ready for a new boat and it’s performance characteristics are not unimportant (as compared to, for example, its color or other esthetics…although, I’m also obsessing on that a bit as I’m getting custom colors). Not expecting that the boat will transform me into a Hurricane rider, but still want a boat that’s suitable for the right side of the bell curve that describes the conditions in which i might be operating it. Hardware and software are not mutually exclusive. More often they are complementary.

It sounds like you want a boat with what some would call a lot of head room - that is a boat that can take on messy stuff and still feel like it is a long way from needing a lot of handling from you. Though if tidal exchange is part of the issue, you don’t want it to be stiff as a rail. The folks involved with the NDK Explorer and subsequently the Xcite boats designed with that in mind. I think the designer name is Mark Allen but don’t quote me on that. The Valley Aquanaut, an older design, sat very easily in messy stuff. More of the current P&H boats have the same thought, like the newer Cetus line. And the WS Tempest series is again a solid all-rounder run of boats. In general, makers have moved to boats that are more predictable and less thrilling for folks who liked the “interactive” stability of some of the much older designs. The old Sirius for example was a very sweet feeling boat. And the paddler was going to be feeling quite a bit of it if things got messy - it was not going to be a baby-sitter.

At an age to get Medicare, I unabashedly want some of the baby-sitter in my boats. I am out there to enjoy myself and get home again without fuss, not to set any records.

I second the experience diagnosis–not to say that you OP are inexperienced, but there is no teacher, or class that is as confidence building as repeated experiences where you more, or less control the situation. Most often, I would work my way up to conditions and try not to allow myself to get caught in the soup where I hadn’t figured a safe escape from something that is more than I was ready for. Looking back, I can’t help being a little embarrassed at what I used to think was my limit. At the same time, though, I thank myself for being patient and a little cautious. On reflection, I have to say that a very big part of it is learning what the boat is really capable of and especially how it reacts to the liquid bumps and hydraulics. I will also admit to at least a few times I analyzed the situation and said, what’s the worst thing that could happen and kind of went for it and later agreed with myself if I’d have known it was going to be that wild, I probably would have decided against it. I even learned from those occasions that I was pretty darned lucky to have made it unscathed, but that there really are limits that I doubt I will ever test again if I can help it.

Always have a backup plan and don’t rush it. The boat really can make a big difference, but keeping cool, collected and believing you’ve done this hundreds of times is very helpful.

Totally agree Magooch regarding the value of experience in conditions to build confidence (or not, I suppose). Sadly, I no longer live close enough to the ocean to accumulate those experiences as rapidly as I would like. I use to get out every weekend when I lived up in CT. Down here in Atlanta, its mostly lakes and rivers with 2 or 3 trips a year to the Gulf of Mexico or southeast coast.

I always heard that a good rough water boat was one that turned easily. You don’t want a ‘tracker’.

Yes, rocker. Rock and roll. Pivot. Skills.

Rex, I would say that all really depends upon what you’re doing in rough water, and your skill level. I think a person has to distinguish between park & play rough water, and the traveler. I’ve no doubt that greater skill is on display by some surf ski paddlers running open-water miles than some of the park and play folks spinning tight turns and getting pushed around by waves. If you’re more into paddling around from place to place than park and play scenarios, a little stiffer tracking isn’t bad, and can be very much appreciated. You don’t need maneuverability to run miles through rough seas, or to traverse rough inlets or bays. But your skill level does have to be up to maneuvering whatever you choose. This is where the feel and efficiency of a kayak becomes such a personal decision.

For this scenario, I would suggest trying a Current Designs Prana and a Boreal Design Baffin along with others like the Explorer and Cetus and such. Something that hits the playful mark without giving up too much in hull efficiency - and with a fairly solid feeling of stability.

I’m very much in tune with fighting tidal currents, and any place where that’s a possibility for the day’s paddling, I personally enjoy efficiency. Any comparative difficulty during those moments of maneuvering, on a cumulative basis, could never come close to the added difficulty running miles against a current in a comparatively slow kayak. Running miles around Cape Romaine, fighting currents, and wanting to feel nice and secure if conditions picked up, I couldn’t go wrong with the Current Designs Nomad. If I wanted to bring the volume down, get towards playboat maneuverable, without sacrificing too much efficiency, I have an Ellesmere that fits that bill well. I think the Baffin fits along those lines, but might feel a little more secure overall than the Ellesmere. I understand the Baffin took the Ellesmere hull and made a few tweaks to it. I have a friend that just got a new Baffin, and another that paddles one that let me try it briefly once. If you feel secure in it, I think it would serve your purposes well. I really think you should try the Prana too. I just think those two seem like they could fit well with what you’re describing.

Here’s a surfski on a downwind run in 50 knots of wind:

https://youtu.be/VvFegImPpPo

And here’s a guy surfing a stubby SOT:

https://youtu.be/qpJVoBM5rkk

So which is the better rough water boat?

Oh, and vis a vis the Prijon Kodiak discussion above, Jon Turk paddled a Kodiak from Japan to the Aleutians. 'Twas considered a rough water expedition. Then again, the Atlantic was first crossed by kayak in a folding Klepper-style boat. And Ed Gillet paddled to Hawaii in a Necky Nootka double. Gosh, you’d almost have to conclude that all kayaks are potentially good rough water boats!

The surfski can reach much greater speeds therefore can catch waves and swells much better then other pwc’s. It’s what they’re designed to do. Sea kayaks and stubby plastic ones can occasionally catch waves but it’s not what they are designed for. To catch swells you need speed and the right shape.

Good rough water Paddler makes a good rough water kayak.

There are so many different boats that are good matches for different rough waters. I have paddled in a lot of different conditions and have not yet found the magical set to make any boat my “go to” for surf, rock gardening, reflected waves or confused open water waves and surf.
A few on my list of must haves is a rockered boat with enough volume to stay on top most of the time. Good seals on front and rear bulkheads capable of not imploding from water or other incidental pressure. it is for this reason alone that I have sold both my LL Stinger and Pyrahna Fusion, as even with properly fitted float bags, once broached they have to be cleared before proceeding. In my opinion it is vastly more difficult to pump out a nose (or tail) heavy boat, than a swamped boat with front and rear bulkheads. A boat must be easy to do wet re-entry, this is what eliminated my Valley Avocet ( I am not as flexible as I used to be).
I have kept 3 boats over the last 5 years: Dagger Alchemy S, WS Zephyr 155, and oddly enough a CD Whisler.
( I know the Whistler is not even considered by most to be a rough water boat, but it is just so damn comfortable to rest in)
I guess my take on what is the best rough water boat: it would be the boat that best makes up for the shortcomings that we all have, one that you are comfortable with, and can safely play in when most people are pulling out of the water.

Cape Fear:

Found comments about Bahiya interesting. Every time I look at the hull of my Bahiya I just shake my head thinking it is all wrong and weird compared to other boats. Every time I go on a camping trip with my Bahiya I just shake my head at how well it works on the trip. Lots of little things right even if lots of things seem wrong with that boat.

I always wonder about, and wish I could have been there for the Bahiya design process. I imagine a very experienced paddler putting together their concepts of what would make the perfect hull, and then doing a series of tweaks to perfect it to their liking. The bow is like an uncompromising dedication to making the finest entry through the water possible. Besides the flare at the very top of the hull at the deck, it takes 2 1/2 feet for the bow to reach around 4" wide. I imagine silent, low-effort glide was on the mind.
Definitely a kayak with personality and capability. You can’t get the best out of it just sitting on it and depending on it to keep you upright in good form. You have to be of the attitude of actively riding, taking the bull by the horns. But once you develop the feel for it, you find you actually have yourself more of a Peruvian Paso.

There are a number of factors that affect hull performance and, often, what works for flat water is less appreciated in rough water. Moving water adds another performance dimension to hull design, as does wind (as it strikes the hull above the water), length over all (LAW - Length At Waterline which will change when the boat is loaded), weight distribution, beam, and probably some features I will probably remember as I add to this post.

Thus, hull choice is a game of tradeoffs. No boat will do everything excellently. A boat that tracks well will (tend to be) slower to respond in surf, but may be better in moving water or following seas. Some general rules follow:

LAW affects tracking and ability to maneuver. The longer the LAW, the better the boat tends to track. This is better for launching than landing in surf, but doesn’t mean the boat will perform poorly.
LOA (length over all) is the actual length of the boat. This comes into play rarely as only the wet surfaces of the boat affect hull performance. Rarely is the entire length of the boat wet, though there are some examples where it comes into play.
Hard chines affect the profile of the boat at the point of contact with the water. Leaning the boat provides a much different wet profile (ie. hull contact shape with the water) than boats without hard chines. Thus, a hard chine boat will (tend to) behave differently when leaned than it does when paddling flat. These will also come in play in rough water since the wet surfaces will vary according to whether the waves sink the chines (wave angle can also be a factor).
Rocker reduces the LOA of the the boat, giving you your LAW. A boat with lots of rocker is effectively shorter. It will rise up to meet waves and tend to track less well. Following seas are the enemy of these boats and most will want a rudder to compensate. Laden, the hull will ride deeper and performance of the boat may change significantly.
Beam affects (top) forward speed as it increases both resistance and stability. Wider boats grant decent initial stability, but they are often more easily tipped once the tipping point is reached (beam reduces the aforementioned secondary stability - a concept I learned long ago and can understand the controversy). Beamy boats have their place, but generally suck in surf conditions as they are slow to respond and can easily exceed their tipping point in rough water.

So, the question becomes not “which boat should I buy” but which boat best fits my paddling environment and what are my preferred performance characteristics. It is a very complicated series of tradeoffs.

Example: I loved the Current Designs solstice when it first came out. It was awesome in the surf, paddled well and felt fast, responded to a lean, and tracked decently. Good LOA (almost no rocker) and very low volume in the bow, so it was essentially a submarine that allowed any wave over 3 inches high to slap you in the chest or face. The bow was a pointed spear with the rocker beginning 18-24 inches in from the narrow bow. On calm days it was a joy to paddle for most, but the design made it a very wet ride. In storm conditions (it should probably have been equipped with a tank and regulator) you might well find yourself getting a face slap from every wave that was over 2 feet high. In choppy conditions, beam seas washed over you with the boat making little effort to ride up and over. Very fun boat, for me, but then I was always dressed for immersion and wind. Others hated the thing and the need to always wear a wet or dry suit.

Example 2: I disliked the surf skis I tried. Most I tried years ago were much like the round hull I mentioned earlier. Very tippy and required speed to make them more sea worthy. Sure, they were fun in the surf, but most were only 18-20 inches wide, could not be used for camping (no storage), and were temperamental on flat water. Great for surf and very fast, both of which appeal to me. They responded well to leans, rudder strokes, and could more easily be kept pointing toward shore, but their lack of utility meant they were not something I could use outside the surf zone. Since I could only afford one boat at the time, these quirky beasts were quickly discarded as options.

As for a large volume bow affecting purling, I doubt that is much of a factor. Any boat whose rear is lifted sufficiently in relation to the bow will purl. The larger volume may alter the angle before purling occurs, but not appreciably. Lots of rocker may help since LOA is a greater issue with purling than is volume (in this odd situation, the bow and stern may be deeply submerged and the middle of the boat will ride much higher on the water). Short boats generally don’t purl (the stern does not lift very high in relation to the bow) and the larger volume in the cockpit comes into play, providing sufficient buoyant force. Longer boats which can have 5-6 feet of hull in front of the cockpit are much more likely to purl and a larger volume in the bow will have little effect. Effectively, the boat is a lever being lifted by the wave from behind.

Rick

Also take a paddle of the Point 65 North Whisky designed by Nigel Foster-----he designed it originally to be a big water boat. Lots of volume in the bow and stern and no keel and good rocker for sweeping the boat about however you need to. The hard chines are great for carving on edge if you want to do that, or they are like leaning on a rock when you’re looking for great secondary stability, I have a fiberglass one that is my go to boat for playing about in surf and rough water, but it is now being made in a plastic version as well that has either less rocker for touring or more for playing–your choice. A very easy boat to get used to very quickly and always feel safe in. I would also look at the NDK Explorer–also designed for big water (Wales) and very predictable and safe feeling once you have paddled it a bit and skilled yourself up.------------Kevin

I just remember years back folks talking about how great the Valley Pintail was in rough water and how slow it was on flat water. A very turny boat. Then I saw that some west coast rock and rollers (Neptune’s Rangers?) were using the Dagger Alchemy and similar boats for that type of play.