wow this is scary but really helpful. Do you know where someone could find the same accident stats but for rafting and canyoning…I’d appreciate the help
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I don’t know specifically but, for example, I pursue Pennsylvania stats from time to time which sometimes provide a little more detail https://www.fishandboat.com/About-Us/Reports/Documents/AccidentAnalysis2022.pdf
Maybe other states of interest have similar reporting.
If you don’t wear a seatbelt or helmet you’re usually easy to find especially when you’re dead unlike a watercraft.
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You forgot the “quality of the experience” argument I think. I wear the waist inflatable belt because I don’t like the bulk around my shoulders. I enjoy sun and wear a bathing suit. I have no interest in buying a dry suit because usually it’s a situation where the water is very cold but the sun and air is warm. I enjoy feeling free.
My husband and I wanted to learn to roll near our new house in GH (Puget Sound) but the local club has all these classes we had to do first. Part of their philosophy was wearing exposure protection at all times.
We just made a quick trip to Mexico, had a great instructor. I know it really turned my husband off that our area is so paternalistic about what they believe he should do or not do.
Paddling might be the safest thing he does (Ice climbing, flying with crop dusters etc) He was commander of a jump wing, he is not going to be told by some retired civilians what he can do in his free time. The same thing happened with diving when they began requiring medical waivers and history in commercial diving boats.
There really isn’t a good solution for me in terms of a social group.
People here talk a lot about their fathers teaching them about safety.
Mine was on an FBI swat team and almost killed all of us kids every weekend. My mother solo’d seven months pregnant.
If you were not successfully taking risks then they didn’t respect you. I’m not defending this.
He put me in kites behind a boat from eleven years old. So keep in mind that you are working with all kinds of people and try and impart better practice knowledge to people if you wish but do not run people away if you care about the outcome of more safety in the sport.
Like a political argument, being persuasive is effective and excluding people is not.
I’m not a fan of zero tolerance.
What do the PFD absolutists say about people that freedive from their kayaks?
This is very popular in Hawaii and when I free-dive from a kayak there is no way to wear a life jacket. YET it is more safe than shore diving where one is at the mercy of the currents or fatigue and need to make it back to shore carrying gear, cameras, spearguns etc.
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This absolute PFD’er would say do whatever you want, but do it a safely as possible.
You and your husband do a lot of interesting and risky things, and know how to do them safely. That is great. But I can’t help thinking back to Doug Thomkins who also did a lot of interesting and risky things, and died in a kayak accident. Sh*t happens.
The risk progression that most people are trying to avoid when paddling is exposure, which leads to incapacitation, which leads to drowning. We all know how to break that chain - you can greatly increase the amount of time you can be in cold water without incapacitation by wearing cold water gear. You can also greatly reduce the risk of drowning with a PFD. That is best practice for paddlers. Of course there is a lot of judgement involved, and there are other ways to reduce the risk like paddling in a group, paddling at your skill level and paddling in appropriate conditions. I’m fine with you making your own decisions.
Personally I don’t see it as exclusionary for groups to have safety requirements. Once on the water we are all in it together, so starting with minimum requirements for experience and equipment makes sense to me. I paddle with the AMC a lot, but I have several friends who don’t like the structure. They don’t do AMC trips, and that is fine - their choice.
We all make are own decisions in life. Hopefully we will be around for many more years to debate this.
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Agree. I’m just explaining why some people might avoid some group activities or go outside the US where it might be more relaxed. I watched it happen to diving over a few decades. That commercial fixation was medical histories (but you, the paying customer don’t get theirs)
I’m curious what percentage of people carry a tow line and a pump?
I appreciate the antidote about the “billionaire anti-capitalist” but it’s likely he was wearing a
PFD.
I’m a strong supporter of “what aboutisms” because it puts risk in context which is important.
In medicine this would be the relative risk vs absolute risk debate.
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I agree with that. I stopped doing a lot of organized group paddle activities because I have across social dynamics that just take away from my enjoyment. Because I enjoy challenging conditions, I have to be just ready to get up and go when these arrive. So, 99% of the time, I am solo paddling and making my own judgement about my level of risk for a specific venue.
Having said that, I did one group paddle last year and will do some more this year. It is with a surf and rockplay long boat contingent in Rhode Island. This group knows the play spots, as well as the parking situations (very challenging in ocean fronting New England states) for the different venues in my neighboring state. In going out with them, I need to and will agree to their accepted norms, including stipulations about equipment and such.
Outside of being a rare and totally independent individual in the wilds of Alaska, most of us have to make varying levels of accommodation to fit into some form of social norms.
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That’s an interesting element: is the group ability above your level of ability or below it and how does that impact the desire for compliance to the group norm?
In actuality I wear the inflatable belt and carry the vest on deck. It’s a back up, I can throw it, add it etc.
it’s more safe for me to be with a “non compliant” partner than alone.
I was taught by old school boaters to never leave without a tow line. They explain that if the boat capsized you’d want to tie a line from bow to stern to hold onto because hulls are slippery in seas.
I believed that was good advice.
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No second chance for him 
They might say “do whatever you want”, but then tell you that you are “reckless, foolish, and endangering yourself and others” or “you never know”, or some other cliche of why you should ALWAYS wear a PFD. I know this because when I said that I don’t wear a PFD when using my canoe as a swimming platform in a warm, shallow lake those are the responses I received. It even went so far that when I asked someone if they would swim in a PFD, they said “yes” and implied I should too.
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People have different brains, with varying levels of appetite for risk. If it’s more fun for you to paddle without a PFD or to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, I have no problem with it. But if you choose not to observe safety measures then I don’t think it’s fair to expect communal tax dollars to pay for saving you.
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It doesn’t matter. If you decide to go out with the group, then you have to conform to the group’s standards. Otherwise, just go out on your own.
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The reality is that people will say “s#it” no matter what. I fully expect that if I die out there, there will be the seconding guessing, the condemnation, etc. Doesn’t matter to me. What matters is that my wife and sons know who I am/was and that my wife is taken care of financially.
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What about morbidly obese people or
big drinkers? I sure pay for them
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My point was that I go out with a non compliant spouse because it’s safer than going out alone in a new place, cold water etc
I feel he can decide for himself and I was making the case for trying to influence others over time, etc. vs “too bad I won’t go with you”
I certainly don’t want to derail the PFD thread.
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True. It’s obviously a complicated issue. I think I’m recently triggered by seeing tax dollars go to the rescue attempt for the submersible. It seems so unfair when so many people don’t even have access to routine preventative care.
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In my experience, most organized group activities, particularly if sponsored or supported in any way by a commercial entity (a paddle shop, for example) or a non-profit (like a school or service club) don’t want to be requirement enforcers. Rather, they (or their underwriters, more likely) recognize the realities of our litigious society and must either manage potential liability or stop doing the activity. Too often, those who resist the “rules” most vocally are also the first in line to sue when things go south.
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True, and that’s the point, so many say, “do whatever you want” and don’t actually mean it. They actually do want to tell you what to do. BTW, I recognized it as such, laughed at the absurdity of it and didn’t change my behavior one bit.
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What about things that are inherently risky, like you know sea kayaking or ww paddling? There’s a lot of people that wouldn’t want taxpayer money going to rescue those “crazy” people PFD or not.
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True, It’s a big can of worms. But i think driving is more risky than sea kayaking!
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