Celia
if you are significantly shorter than 6’ and less than 200lbs you might not appreciate what “tippy” feels like for that person. For that size person In a Tempest 170 having a good brace is a basic skill and for some folks learning braces doesn’t come after a LONG time paddling or learning to roll. For me I really didn’t get bracing until AFTER I learned to roll a kayak. If you constantly have to brace when in the kayak you will be very reticent to rotate your torso around for effective turning strokes.
shallow water
– Last Updated: Jul-25-11 1:50 PM EST –
where you can play with the capsize angle is a good idea. The T170 is a good size for you but it's ease of falling to the capsize angle reflects an experienced paddler/designers preferences, not every designer/paddlers preferences. Try a Gulfstream, Tsunami 145, Tsunami 165, Manitou14.
Something you might try playing with in the shallow area with any kayak, sit on the back deck. As long as the beach isn't too steep or there are waves try just squat over the back of the coaming and sit down just behind the coaming. Put your blade out far and play around with long sculling braces (look it up) . After a bit lift your feet a bit until you're using that sculling brace as a kind of dynamic outrigger and just the balls of your feet are barely touching bottom. Keep doing it until you're able to balance on the back deck and switch the sculling brace to the other side. After fallng a few dozen times you'll get better at it. Then get in the kayak and do the same.
Sizes and horses
– Last Updated: Jul-25-11 1:03 PM EST –
My comment was based on the experience of people I've known of the OPer's size who paddled that boat. My husband as well as others I have known who did try out the T170 and found it, if anything, relatively boring are a bit taller than 6 ft and weigh within 20 pounds of the OPer. Granted none of these guys were new paddlers.
There is a place where even larger boats are just not a good match for the volume of the paddler. We have a couple of paddling buddies who are 6'4" and not skinny - the T170 as well as the Explorer HV (which isn't actually more hull volume than the regular spend more time than ) are stability challenges for them. And if you've ever seen him in person, it is clear that Wayne Horodowitch is a great match for boat of quite high volume beyond the average "large" paddler's boat.
There can be individual issues that are just not worth messing around with because it gets in the way of paddling pleasure. We have a guy in our local group who is about this guy's size - maybe a smidge shorter but likely the same weight - and he got out of the T170 because he just couldn't acclimate to the balance. But he was also coming from one a super stable boat targeted for inland paddling and is, due to no fault other than living well into his retirement, not very flexible. In steep river wind waves it just wasn't working for him. That said, on the same trip one of our 6'4" friends was in something like a Romany and had plenty of stability to run around and do rescues.
The OPer is where we all started - first time in a sea kayak and the normal motion felt uncomfortably tippy. But given the boat and his size, it's reasonable to expect he can work it out.
Re acclimating to a sea kayak, it's not just the ability to brace that rolling helps. It is also learning just how far over you can get a good boat before it'll actually capsize, as long as you hold a centered position. Based on my own experience starting out, I was throwing a lot of braces that were unnecessary because the boat wouldn't have gone over anyway. I just didn't know that yet. I doubt my anxieties were unusual for a newer paddler.
“given the boat”
– Last Updated: Jul-25-11 1:01 PM EST –
given that there are other boats there's no reason to force the issue if he doesn't accomodate after a weeks time.
The Tempest is not to my taste. The lean to turn is fairly abrupt and it weathercocks too much. To control it's direction through leaning in high winds involves a quick transition to the capsize angle with a very quick turn. There isn't much in between especially when one is in waves.
I weigh more than the op and am shorter with some experience. The Tempest 170 is an odd duck that suits some preferences but it's not what I'd pick for beginning lessons.
Like I said your experience may not be applicable. I taught sea kayaking for five years and it was pretty obvious that many women in a 17'x22" kayak would have to put both arms over one side and lean to capsize while many top heavy guys couldn't execute a BASIC sweep stroke without bracing or they'd fall over.
Don’t disagree - capsizing
– Last Updated: Jul-25-11 1:28 PM EST –
Comfort is key - and yes there are some for whom that comes hard in this (or other) boats. The OPer since indicated they hadn't had even a full lesson time in this boat so that's a factor. It sounds like it doesn't turn as easily as say a Romany, and for a new paddler that is a problem. They may not have gotten that far - not sure the OPer had time to get beyond the basic issue of how it felt sitting there.
There is likely a good reason that the T170 is less popular than the T165 too.
One other thing that comes up unstated in this thread is fear of capsize, and that is an unfortunate waste of time for most people in a pretty safe lesson environment. I wish someone had done for me the same thing we've done for others since, which is to take them out early on to capsize and do on-water re-entry. No one learns to really relax in the boat until they stop worrying about capsizing. If a paddler finds out early on it is safe and recoverable, they can get a lot more comfortable earlier. We spent time on this with a guy a couple of days ago, having him capsize and going thru some re-entry options. It took all of 40 minutes and he paddled away feeling safer than he had since he got the boat last fall. He still has to practice re-entries, but he has the tools to do that now.
3hrs is enough time
– Last Updated: Jul-25-11 2:08 PM EST –
I don't doubt one could create a specific lesson plan for him in that kayak to address comfort levels but if he's one of six people and one instructor the lesson plan is constructed to cover a specific set of skills for EVERYONE, not just those who don't have stability issues.
He could pay for one on one instruction, which is always better anyway, or he could get a more stable kayak so that he can get the basics down in the time allotted WITH a group of people in a group lesson.
I don't see paying more for one on one lessons as a necessary option.
This is different than someone who is thinking of getting a kayak and will have the time to become accustomed to it, this is someone who is paying to learn a set of skills in a finite time period and if he's out of his comfort zone the ENTIRE instruction period he will not learn much of what the course is teaching. If one half of the course was "how to become accustomed to enthusiast sea kayaks and bracing" it would be reasonable to start with the 170.
30yrs ago Perception Chinooks were the basic "sea kayak" with Eclipses thrown in for instructors or those without stability issues. While the general population of experienced paddlers is much larger and much greater variety of sea kayaks accesible to beginners and intermediate paddlers the entry level experience for someone learning to paddle hasn't changed. It's no fun for an instructor to have to divert a lot of attention for someone outside their comfort zone and short-change those who are able to keep up with the lesson plan.
oops, he was in the boat one hour. That's still enough time to know he needs something more stable to get what's taught for the remaining 2hrs. Most of the time I could guess what's right for a student but if the choice is a Carolina 14/16 or a SeaLion/Tempest170 for someone who just couldn't settle down to figure out basic strokes I'll put him in the fatter boat. Same thing happened for 100lb women when the only choices were 65lb plastic boats. I eventually got my 13'x22" Pygmy into the classes and they could have fun.
I hear the emotion glide is nice
That’s…
…not very nice. =[
Funny, but not nice. =]
I please to aim
Boat+Paddler = Unique Combo
I’ve found that every boat/paddler combination is unique, and what you think might work for someone may not. Conversely, I know a 5’6 female beginner who loves her 18’ Impex Outer Island. If you’re not comfortable with a boat after paddling it a few times and getting your “sea hips”, try something else. Don’t be in a hurry to buy. Take some more lessons in different kayaks, and if you find one that feels good, try it out some more. Take your time, your kayak will find you!
17-foot isn’t less stable
Length doesn’t have much effect on stability. A boat like the Atlantis Titan or Seaward Chinook has lots of stability and are over 17’. If you want to tour, might as well get a touring boat. If not, a smaller boat will be more responsive.
Some shorter day touring boats have less stability.
17-foot by itself isn’t unstable…
…but other things that tie into the design of ‘17-foot and up’ touring/expedition boats often seem to lead to boats in that class having less primary/initial stability than rec boats or even most day-tourers.
The boats you mentioned have 24" beams, which are atypically wide for boats that long. The more common expedition/touring kayak has a 20"-22" beam, and often seems to be designed so that you edge/lean it (which results in an in-effect shorter boat) to turn quickly.
As part and parcel of being able to lean/edge easily, I’m guessing some primary stability is intentionally given up. Again, different boat for a different skill level and different set of needs.
I’m also not sure that a wide-beamed long boat would be all that great to paddle… beyond being harder to edge and thus turn, a long AND wide boat = a LOT of wetted surface area, which, all else being equal, would seem to result in more drag. =<br />
If what you’re saying is that not all expedition/touring boats are designed the way I describe above (long/narrow/less stable), then point taken. There are some exceptions, and maybe they’re worth looking into for some ppl.
Heck, I’ll try out one just because you mentioned it, and now I’m curious. =]