I am curious about which other kayaks you have tried.
Did you try any sea kayaks?
Sea kayaks can be considered tippy by first impression, but it is usually in the head of the paddler. As soon as he relaxes, almost all sea kayaks will sit stable on the water. If he doesn’t relax, bets are off.
Also, stability is really something one should find in the paddle, not in the kayak. This is where lessons may help. Or at least some youtube videos.
Taking a better look at the photos, I suspect that the issue you have with other kayaks is less one of instability and more one of being able to relax in a different boat.
Assuming I have it right that you are paddling what is in those photos, that is not a barge. It appears to be along the lines of an ancient moving water boat, maybe for slalom.
If you go to what are called rec boats, yes they will be slow as molasses compared to that boat.
I would also posit that a lower level touring boat, say a Wilderness Systems Tsunami in the right size for you, should not feel any less stable than the boat in the picture. Probably more so. I mention this line because they are an example of boats that have features apt for handling any messy water if you find yourself in small haystacks, decent hull speed, and are among the easier boats to find used. Other manufacturers like Current Designs have boats in this niche.
These boats are also likely to have a more generous cockpit than the boat you show.
Spending more time in different boats is likely to be the cure. If you are comfortable in what is pictured, an entry level touring boat that can be picked up used should be something to which you can acclimate.
No I’ve not tried a sea kayak. Most recent one was a Galaxy Fuego (sit on) which was too big and bulky, also tried a whitewater one (didn’t realise until after), think it was called a riot or something and a couple of ones I didn’t know the name of but very lightweight. I’ve not tried many other sit in kayaks similar size to mine so that has to be the answer I think.
That’s great thank you very much Celia, I will get reading on the type of kayaks you’ve mentioned.
Oh hell. I’ll stick my neck out. Get yourself a 14 foot Dagger of some model or another or a Wilderness Systems Zephyr. If those aren’t stable enough for you it’s time to find another hobby.
There.
Glad it helped. I just looked and in the CD line the equivalent would likely be the Vision boats. But I am not seeing them in plastic and even a used price will be higher. The Tsunamis, or Manitou series from Necky which also was heavily used in rental fleets, are plastic hence cheaper.
OOPS - got caught. The CD transition kayaks are also available in poly/plastic.
Cheers Rex. To be honest I don’t think what I’m used to is especially stable, fairly average I think but I’ve tried a couple of very difficult ones which I got on the cheap! Thank you, I’ll have a look at those.
Thanks. Stupid question coming up…what impact does the length have? Think my current one is 15 foot(ish).
For the most part long, skinny boats are faster and less stable than short, wide ones. 14 to 15 foot boats tend to be a good compromise. I’ve really enjoyed the used Dagger Alchemy I acquired some years back. It does a pretty good job on flat water and an even better job in wind and waves.
CD has several of its Vision kayaks in poly, namely the 135R and the 150R.
And in its “Transitional” range they also offer the Whistler and Breeze in poly.
Length means little in terms of speed unless it is accompanied by less width. It is the ratio that matters. Expedition sea kayaks can be over 2 plus feet longer and four inches less wide than transitional kayaks. Giving them a skinnier ratio.
kfbrady, thanks for the catch of the CD boats being available in poly. I should have poked around a bit more.
I guess the other respondent were not able to see the photo links you posted — did you have trouble posting them here in the discussion?
The boat you have been using that you like so much is quite old, probably 1970’s or ‘80’s, appears to be laid up fiberglass and could be home made (many of us in that era built them ourselves from molds that our paddling clubs had). I’m guessing it is 13’ long and was probably made on the mold for slalom boats of the type that were used in Olympic whitewater races. I wouldn’t be very confident of the structural integrity of a boat that old. You’ve already noted that the cockpit is pretty snug and the boat probably lacks bulkheads and obviously lacks decklines and a rudder or skeg. So it does not have the safety features of a modern sea or touring kayak.
You’re an average sized guy so there are scads of boats that would fit you and handle well in the conditions you describe. I’d suggest you look for a used touring kayak 14’ to 16’ long and 22" to 24" in width. Celia suggested one common model (the Tsunami), others would be a Perception Carolina 14, Necky Looksha 14, Necky Elaho 16 or a Riot Edge 15.
If you like the boat’s handling, look for one the same length and width. Then look at the bottom profile - flat to semicircle, and see if you can match that. From your description you don’t need much rocker. I’m 6’2" and can’t fit into half the cockpits out there, for that you need to sit in one.
Yours looks somewhat like my Phoenix Appalachian, 1975, 14’ by 24". HIN starts with PHX. Nice lightweight boat but the cockpit is too short.
So many helpful posts, seems like a great forum. Thanks all.
Willowleaf that’s interesting and you’re spot on in that it’s fibreglass, no bulkheads or decklines. No foot supports either, very basic.
Yes I struggled to add the photo but couldn’t see the error when on a mobile so not sure of the problem.
Thanks for the suggestions on boats as well as other posters Rex, kfbrady, Celia and Kevburg.
I totally get where you are coming from with “tippiness.” That was a concept that took some time to understand when I first started kayaking. Google “kayak stability” and you will learn all about it. Basically it comes down to primary vs. secondary stability. Primary stability is how stable (or non-tippy) the kayak is in flat water, whereas secondary is how stable the kayak is in rougher water. A kayak with high primary stability will tend to remain parallel with the water’s surface. This is great in flat water, but not so much in rough water, because if the kayak remains parallel to waves and swells, it will feel like it’s about to tip over! However, high secondary stability makes it easier for the paddler to keep the kayak upright in rough water – you remain parallel to the Earth but not always the surface the water. As a result, a kayak with high secondary stability will feel very tippy in flat water. This tippiness is necessary so that the paddler can stay upright when the surface of the water is all over the place.
There is of course a wide spectrum of primary vs. secondary stability, and there are a lot of factors that go into this, but mostly it’s the result of the shape of the hull.
My wife started out paddling on a Dagger Catalyst 13.0. It is a good all-arounder – a good mix of primary (good for flat water) and secondary stability (able to keep it upright when rougher) and easy to maneuver. I think that boat is no longer made, you might be able to find it used, but the equivalent is now the Perception Conduit. You can get it with or without a rudder. Check it out.
Thank you lytleric, that’s a good explanation for someone new to this and handy to know. I’ll check out the kayak you mentioned too.
Will see if I can grab a bargain sometime this year so I’m all ready to go for next year. I expect many of you kayak all year round but due to limited light it’s not so easy for me with my time restrictions (plus if I’m being honest I prefer it when the weather is warmer!). Until I find the right one I’ll keep using my epoxy antique!
As a gross simplification for boats that have the same general shape, including width, the longer a boat is the faster it will be. As a very general rule the maximum speed of any displacement hull–commonly called its hull speed–is governed by a simple formula: hull speed in knots equals 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length in feet (HS = 1.34 x √LWL).
There are other factors involved and it is not an absolute limit. A boat can exceed it’s theoretical maximum hull speed. but not really in a kayak. Hull speed considerations are why most surf skis and racing kayaks tend to be 18-22’ in length. Much longer for a single person boat drag, maneuverability, and stability come into play. As boat length is often used to classify a boat in more serious competitions, that its also why most of these boats will have vertical bows and sterns because it gives them the most waterline length for total boat length.
A brief description of primary vs secondary stability can be found here on this site. It has to do with hull shape. Various boats are often rated for both. My boat has a soft chine and only moderate primary and secondary stability. If you exceed the limits of secondary stability and don’t brace or take other corrective action, you’re going for a swim. When practicing wet exits, rolling, bracing, or rescues, playing around to learn the limit of the secondary stability for your boat is a good thing to know.
Judging from your photos and the ratio of cockpit length to length overall, I suspect your boat is shorter than 15’ but it would be easy enough to get a tape and measure it. I agree with willowleaf that it has the general appearance of an old,whitewater slalom K1 of 1970s vintage and may well be a home build. That was back before rotomolded kayaks were available and most of the river kayaks available in this country were patterned after Olympic slalom K1s. At that time the minimum length requirement for Olympic K1 slalom boats was 4 meters which is about 13 feet 1 1/8". Somebody would fashion a plug based on one of the few Olympic slalom K1s that existed in the US at that time, and the plug would be used to fashion molds. A club would acquire a mold which would be passed from member to member, and it would be used to lay up hulls and decks in the backyard.
As time went on whitewater kayaks became much shorter for maneuverability, and much less “pointy” for safety but in doing so they usually also became wider for buoyancy and a good deal of hull speed was lost.
I also agree with those who have suggested trying a rotomolded kayak in the 12.5-14 foot range like a Wilderness Systems Tsunami or a Necky Manitou. I tend to call these “recreational sea kayaks” and while they do give up a bit of speed compared to a longer and skinnier sea kayak, they should at least match the hull speed of what you have now, and most paddlers seem to find them pretty user-friendly.
I am a new(ish) paddler, now in my second year. I own two boats, a Dagger Stratos 14.5L and a more “tippy” Romany Surf. I am 6’4” with a high center of gravity. That new tippy fealing is unpleasant and embarrassing if you fall out in front of a crowd near the shore. I have only tipped over once, early on with the Romany when a side wave hit me while backing out from a small island.
One of the best things I have learned is that you will feel tippy in a longer/narrower boat if you are just sitting still. If you get in and push off from a shore or dock and keep moving you will fund that momentum helps. Once moving you can experiment with your body posture. Leaning into the wind can create a better feeling of stability even if your brain tells you your boat is not level. A few hours really helps. You can then slow down to a crawl and test your stability. Having a freind to help you practice bracing helps as well.
This can take a little time, but pretty soon you will return from a good paddle and suddenly realize you never once felt tippy…
Hi SJD, I think you’re looking for a fast sea kayak. It will need to be at least 16 ft. long and no more than 21 inches wide, because long and narrow is fast in kayaks. You should spend a little more money and get fiberglass or Kevlar rather than a cheaper plastic boat. Fiberglass and Kevlar make kayaks stiffer which again make the boat faster. They are also lighter which is a plus. Well worth the price, but you have to look for a deal. They will scratch more easily. How much do you care about scratches? When you go to look at the boat you’re thinking of buying make every effort to test paddle it, but if you can’t lay it on the lawn and sit in it. You can tell a lot about your self and a kayak sitting in it on the grass. Shift your hips around. Feel the boat. Have some mats handy in case the seller does not have any grass. The kayak in the photo is very tippy. Don’t worry about the next one being more tippy than that. It won’t be.