White Water vs Touring Stability

And, Here’s Brent Reitz’s Take…


You also have to know your WW kayak
history. Both of my “fast” WW cruising boats were designed around 1980, when kayaks had relatively little rocker and were 13 feet long. Some of these were rather fast in a straight line. Unfortunately I have not posted a picture of the Noah yet, but its bow has excellent entry lines, and through some trick of the overall design, it does not ramp onto its bow wave until it is going rather fast. It is faster going upstream into the tongue of a rapid than the Necky (a small tour rather than a rec kayak), because the Noah will plane up on its flattish bottom. However, on flatwater, it is somewhat slower.

The Phoenix Seewun is one of the fastest cruising c-1s ever produced. It has a swedeform hull and a flattened elliptical form. As mentioned previously, this hull is pictured in the Race boats section of cboats.net. It is probably faster in a race across a lake than my Zealot slalom racing boat, but the Phoenix accelerates less well, and does not “plane up” when one tries to force it up against a strong current.

Current WW boats are almost all much slower than what was available 20 years ago. They handle better in some ways, though most modern plastic WW play and cruising boats are slugs on a slalom course, and death on a lake.

g2d it seems
like you were dying to give this history away!

Flat Water
The question was about flat water. People learn to stay on subject.

Yes, you are, as always, on topic and
completely correct. The topic was about the stability of WW kayaks or sea kayaks on flat water.

Of course, neither WW kayaks nor sea kayaks are designed for flat water, they are designed for a range of conditions. Some of us were puzzled as to why the original poster specified flat water.

Do you know? By the way, if you are on web sites much, you are going to have to tolerate some drift in topic, whether you like it or not. We call it imagination.

In Pool Skool

– Last Updated: Apr-09-05 12:11 PM EST –

The flat-bottomed, planing, newer type ww boats were hell to roll. The older, round hulled, slimmer boats were a pleasure to roll... for me.

That help answer your question?

Roll-ability and stability can interact,

– Last Updated: Apr-09-05 1:28 PM EST –

but aren't always tightly related. Fortunately, some currently available sea kayaks and some currently available "planing hull" WW playboats and river runners are both nice and comfortably stable upright, AND roll fairly easily.

My old Noah kayak, flat bottomed, hard chined, flat sided, is indifferently stable when upright, and hard to roll upside down. My Phoenix, a very elliptical boat, is firm upright, and easy to roll.

I know about the rails, some slalom
boats have them, but I don’t understand why you say that Venom and many other surf boats do not have chines? In the picture, it sure looks like two large flattish areas (the side and the bottom) meeting at a sharp angle. That there may be a rail right under the sharp angle is not relevant to whether there is a chine.

My Noah has a similar, but less radical, inward slope to the sides, and the chines are softer. It will carve nicely, either by leaning into the turn and carving on the inboard chine, or by cautiously leaning outward and digging in the outboard chine. Surf kayaks should do these things even better.

not harder just different

– Last Updated: Apr-09-05 8:54 PM EST –

Admittedly the RPM is probably the easiest kayak to rolll EVER, but for the most part, I find the planing hull boats can be rolled equally as easily. I have two planing hull kayaks (Dagger GT 7.8 and Riot Dominatrix) and I find that I can roll both as easily as any displacement hull boat. However the timing is different as you need to get used to the different characteristics of the kayaks. On a related note, the only kayak that I have thus far been able to elbow roll is my planing hull playboat (Riot Dom) which shows that it is not necessarily the hull but rather the overall design of the kayak that says whether or not it is an easy roller.

as I define it is the where two surfaces meet at an angle. My surf kayak has planing hull bottom (as all boats) then, for the lack of a better term, a protruding lip that goes all around the boat, i.e. the rail. The rail than meets the deck which angles acutely towards the coaming. The rail, unlike the chine, is not a meeting of two surfaces.


Some People
Some people are only interested in paddling flat water. Their reasons are personal and don’t need to be questioned. The answers should be directed to that subject. Talking about rolling your yak is way off subject and is only an ego thing.

Also In Pool Skool…
the wider, planing hulls took more effort to get upside-down than the older, rounder hulled boats. That help answer your question?

You should re-read the original post.
I don’t think you understood it.