Oh, and about the Euro
Just re-read your post about the 225cm Euro. Probably OK if it is a low angle model, but definitely too long for most other types. Recently went to a class on stroke development (sea kayaks, euro paddles) and had to borrow a paddle. The 215cm Werner (forgot model, I think a fiberglass SHuna for vertical stroke) was way too long and put my arms in less than ideal position for best power, control, and safety. The 210 Werner Tybee that I borrowed next was just about perfect for me in my Zephyr kayak (and so would be an Ikelos or Cyprus of the same length for me).
Used to have a 225cm AT Xception and that was too long. The 220cm bent shaft Lendal Kinetic Touring feels about right but I could live with a few cm shorter version probably, provided the bends were a bit wider compared to where they are on the shorter paddles…
So, maybe you are just used to a longer than necessary paddle…
Okay, I get your meaning. My Euro
paddles have been sitting in the garage for the last three years or so. Once I started with the GP I just did not want to use them anymore. I will work on a slow cadence stroke this weekend that incorporates the proper catch, angled stroke two feet to the side of my hips, and as much rotation,leg drive, and hip rotation as I can muster. Hopefully I can stop over steering the rudder system and use my brain for other things like proper stroke. Slow and deliberate should help to reveal what works and what does not. It sounds like the Fenn 3 is not going anywhere for the time being. I have the new rudder kit for my boat and will install it (involved) when I get a lull in the schedule. I think the deeper skeg will help with the over steering (or possibly make it worse). It is fun to be starting all over again in kayaking, humbling too. Thanks for going easy on me. Bill
I am already dreaming about surf skis, size whale.
round shaft
I run a small strip of hard foam under a grip-tape wrap on the control side. Just a little bump that tells my fingers where the paddle is.
Technique
You can injure yourself with a wing (or any paddle for that matter) if your technique is poor. Given your questions about technique I’d highly recommend that you find an instructor versed in wing technique or at least get a copy of Barton’s forward stroke video, to get a good mental image of the stroke. The vid has good slow-motion footage from the front, side, top, and rear. You might also want to seek out Imre Kemecsey’s writings on the web and study them.
Although people often treat a GP and a wing as opposite ends of the spectrum, a wing feels VERY similar to a Greenland paddle to me, the paddle path is the same (I allow the paddle to flare laterally away from the hull) and both feel like they are planted in concrete with good technique. For flatwater conditions/racing I am about 4-5 minutes faster in a mile with the wing but prefer the GP for touring.
Sorry I missed you at the Michigan Training camp. That is a great venue! Actually I was not in Traverse city at the time – I was in Orlando.
Greg Stamer
Greg- must have been camp legend.
Hopefully we will see you again at Michigan TC. Not too many people using wing paddles in my area. I believe I can adapt my current forward stroke to the wing paddle. Much of my stroke is what I have settled into over the years, but it started in earnest with instruction from you. Do you know if there are any surf ski shops in Fort Meyers? I will be there in November and would like to demo some skis and get a lesson or two if they are available. Thank you for everyone’s input, it has been helpful. Bill
Hey
Bill
Don’t you live somewhat close to Black Parrot …Ron Smith uses a Wing almost exclusively and does a very good instruction of it’s use.
Best Wishes
Roy
Greg, about the GP as wing …
I think I know what you mean by saying you use the GP as a wing - letting it slide away from the hull. I've done that and I've seen others do it. It works fairly well with a good vertical stroke due to the foil shape and a clean release at the end of the stroke due to slim blades. An aleutian paddle seems to work even better for this kind of use.
Do you paddle long distances like that?
I find that if I use a GP this way I might as well be using a wing -;) since it uses the same or very similar muscle groups, except with the GP the hands a closer together so one can't really power it too much. There is still the lifting and high-position of hands/arms and thus more strain on the shoulders compared to other ways of paddling a GP...
Using it with a canted stroke that creates forward lift through the slicing downwards (at the beginning of the stroke) and upwards (at the end of the stroke), in contrast to the above, exercises different muscles. It is not the most powerful stroke but seems to work well over distance at moderate speeds.
Then again I'm self-thaught on the GP so probably there's a lot I don't get (with only one early lesson and later I've mostly watched and gotten some good advice along the way).
Howdy Roy. You are right about Black
Parrot. I am sure there have got to be a few good wing paddlers around. One friend of mine up here actually paddles with Greg down in Florida and in the Water Tribe events they have down that way, I’m sure he can get me going in the right direction. One question I forgot to ask is…does the wing paddle roll differently than other paddles. I wondered if the shape was more sensitive to blade angle or possibly better rolled upside down? Best way to answer this is to just spend some time rolling with it, but it would be nice to get some opinions first. Headed for the St. Clair flats tomorrow morning to work with the new gear. Thanks again for the help. Bill
Hi Bill
I took classes in wing several years ago and thought it was quite fun to paddle with. rolls fine. I almost bought one in order to do a you-tube rolling comparison. It does a standard screw roll it balance braces, rolls fine in an Angel roll and lay back rolls work very well too. I didn’t do a lot of different rolls with it, but it seemed very competent. (since Greg paddles with one now quite often, maybe he will comment) It doesn’t have the “FEEL” on the water that a Greenland paddle has for many variations of strokes and the true slicing through the water that I like in the Greenland rolling and paddling…so seems somewhat more limited in repertoire. But that could be just for me…
Best Wishes
Roy
GP as a wing
As a bit of background it should be mentioned that in some areas of Greenland children are taught to allow the paddle blade to follow the waves that diverge from the bow, during the forward stroke. The lateral motion of a modern wing stroke is not new.
For long distance trips in a kayak like an Explorer or Greenlander Pro, the kayak feels much better to me when fully laden down so that I can clear the deck with my GP.
On a multi-week trip with a fully loaded boat I prefer a very short, simple and compact stroke (fewer moving parts) with my GP. I use a canted blade and wing-style lateral stroke, and hold the paddle shaft at about 45 degrees (going more vertical if I need more speed). I don’t emphasize lift on the exit on my long distance stroke and just try to get the paddle out of the water cleanly.
Compared to a wing paddle, with a GP the same big muscle groups are in play. For speed I use a very vertical stroke. Even when I do a “wing-style” stroke with a GP, because my hands are closer together, my arms are much lower than with a wing. This results in much less arm lift and makes a big difference for me on a long trip. However, I don’t find my hands being slightly closer together to be a major loss of power, since it is torso rotation driving the stroke, rather than independent arm action (with a strong catch you should feel that you can put enough tension on the GP shaft to bend it if you wanted to). Loom length does make a difference. I prefer for my GPs to have a 21" inch or slightly longer loom.
Greg Stamer
you’re wasting your time!
(so when do you pick up a surf ski?)
Let me make sure I get it …
You wouldn’t happen to have a video of your stroke, would you?
When you say: “On a multi-week trip with a fully loaded boat I prefer a very short, simple and compact stroke (fewer moving parts) with my GP. I use a canted blade and wing-style lateral stroke, and hold the paddle shaft at about 45 degrees (going more vertical if I need more speed).”
While you do move the blade away from the hull as it travels back, your are maintaining the forward cant of the blade, right? In this case the “lift” is generated in large due to the downward movement of the blade and due to the canted position ("/" when seen from the side with the kayak moving this way ---->). Even though there is a lateral movement to the side, that is mainly to utilize rotation rather than generate lift?
Like the stroke at 0:57 for instance: http://youtu.be/yOlOE1fJh-g
The above would be different from using a regular wing paddle stroke with the GP: here the paddle is quite vertical and the lift is generated mainly due to the side motion. An example of this would be something like the way the younder guy paddles here at 0:18 for isntance here: http://vimeo.com/29581545
Good points about the shoulders/arm height and loom length, thanks!
Try yours first. I
I’m 5’ 10" and paddle a V10S. When I started with a wing I thought I wanted a 225cm. I got a 210-220, and started at 220 cm. I’m at 211 now. I use a 30 degree feather. If I’m off by 10° I miss miss my stroke.
high angle paddling
I was just at an Epic demo on Monday in Jacksonville, Fl. put on by First Coast Outfitters and to generate the most speed from your kayak your entry angle needs to be high and you should be banging (a little bit) the side of the boat with the paddle every stroke.
So use a high angle and keep the paddle close to the boat and at mid thigh you continue the rear motion while turning the blade to slice it out of the water. Do not try to lift water once you pass the front of your cockpit. It will slow you down.
You are accustomed sed to a gp stroke that
high angle paddling
I was just at an Epic demo on Monday in Jacksonville, Fl. put on by First Coast Outfitters and to generate the most speed from your kayak your entry angle needs to be high and you should be banging (a little bit) the side of the boat with the paddle every stroke.
So use a high angle and keep the paddle close to the boat and at mid thigh you continue the rear motion while turning the blade to slice it out of the water. Do not try to lift water once you pass the front of your cockpit. It will slow you down.
Your gp stroke does not try to lift water as you pass by your body with the stroke. Very different from a wing.
Doesn’t sound right
Maybe your description is not accurate. With a wing the catch is close to the boat. But the blade then moves out and away from the boat with the power face facing directly back. If you keep the blade close to the boat for the entire stroke the paddle will dive under the boat and you will say hi to the fishes.
a couple of observations…
First is a confession. The Fenn 3 paddle I have IS 210-220cm, oops! The guy I got it from thought it was 205-215cm. I thought he was right because it seemed so much shorter than my 225 euro. I have settled into 213cm for the time being. This seems to keep the blade from plunging to deep (my gp stroke is very deep), while still long enough to complete the stroke with the blade submerged.
Second. It seems as though you almost settle into a stroke much as you do with a GP. The high angle stroke with a wing pretty much follows a path about forty five degrees from the boat aftward with removal of the blade when my hands reach my hips. In a sprint I tend to pump with a spearing action much like I have seen the native Greenlanders fo in competition. A pseudo sit up motion while spearing forward really seems to put the power down. For now I want to be smooth and slowly build speed and proper technique. I am enjoying it. Tomorrow we head for Lake Huron gales with max wave heights predicted at 24 feet. This surf play will be done with GP’s and a Romany Surf. Someday the 18x or a ski with a wing will be a possibility. Bill