wing paddle blade size

Advice
#13

Hey Pat, what size…
… is the wing you made for JackL? I got to try it very breifly a year or so ago. Really sweet.

#14

I should have gone small…
Small Mid wing. I recently bought a spare mid wing, and I’m sorry I didn’t buy a small mid instead.



I think it would be better for developing my technique, and for keeping uup the cadence over a few hours.

#15

Patrick!
I’ve emailed you a few times.



205-215 cm, 2 piece with your adjustable lever thingy, small mid wing…



email me your address and the cost, I’ll send you a check.



Andy :slight_smile:

#16

Patrick,
Are you making graphite greenland paddles these days? -:wink: That would be the only new high-cost paddle I would consider down the road…



The first time I spoke with you, if you recall I wanted something “big”. Bigger than what I had at the time, which I now realize was already too big for me. Since then I keep going down in size even though some of my boats are faster now.



I’ve been toying with the idea to get a surf ski and this is the only reason I’m still keeping the mid-wing. If it was not for this, I would have probably swapped it for a smaller one by now. For a surf ski I think it might be OK but I suspect I would swap if for a smaller one down the road anyway - my right shoulder does not like the power it generates and feels better when I use the GP (but that may be a technique thing too - I need more time on the water to figure it out for sure)…

#17

I’m like you…
I have a mid wing and I’m thinking of getting a smaller wing size. I’m 5’6", 150 and I think the mid size is just too much for me. I’d like to try a smaller blade, but most folks around here have the mid size.

#18

There are other paddles…
… than wings & GPs (heresy in both camps I realize) - for those times where wing is a bit much on the shoulder and GP not quite cutting it for speed/mechanics.



Ignoring Euros (I leave them to rec/WW/Surf) you might like an Aleut (nearly as easy on shoulder with better speed than GP) or something like my GP/Aleut/Wing hybrid (uses wing stroke - so a bit more shoulder work - but more like a kid’s wing as far as stresses go): http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2677482640052048071tCjIvP



I really need to take/post more pictures of those and the Aleuts…



These sort of form a continuum going GP-Aleut-Hybrid-Wing as far as stroke/stress/feel differences go. I’d say for speed as well, but Aleut and hybrid seem more tied with no clear advantage for cruising speed - just nicely different on the body. I mostly use these two types now, and switch back and forth a lot between them. My Superior carbon GP is a great paddle - but mostly a spare/beater now.



Speaking of which, if you really do want a CF GP - I think Ron at Novorca may still be having a bit of a sale. Not cheap, but a relative bargain (as are Pat’s wings). He also has a bit more flexibility with sizing than Superior’s one size blade/different loom lengths.



BTW - I held on to my Epic mid wing for same reason as you - a someday (again) surf ski. Needed the cash more and wasn’t using it so I sold it. Figure when I can afford a ski again I’ll be able to afford another wing (and likely a bit smaller one). Maybe Patrick will make me one next time around? Might be a while given $ situation…

#19

Aleut
Yup, the first (and so far only) paddle I’ve made is an Aleut, based in part on the photos you took as well as some of the references you sent me. Mine does not look much like yours though -:wink:



I am not sure what wood I used, but it looks like pine or something similar. At about $10 for a 2"x8"x10’ plank at Home Depot it was not a big investment.



As it is, it is lighter than my Epic mid-wing signature and is probably on par weigth-wise with the Carbon Burgundy shaft for 10x less $ (including the $30 or so plane tool I bought to make it).



It is rather flexible and is great for longer distances. Of course, it is not as buoyant as the Lumpy but is considerably lighter.



Mine has narrow blades - see compared with the 3 and 1/4 width on the Lumpy paddle next to it. Mine is under 3 inches, b/w 2 and 5/8 and 3/4 approximately. Blade length is similar to the Lumpy but my loom is 2 to 3 inches wider than the Lumpy. Total length is 88 for the Lumpy and 90 for mine.



The loom shape is somewhat unusual too - rectangular in the middle, egg-shaped at the grip area. This is for two reasons: first, it was easy to leave it rectangular and second, it is stronger this way.



Photos here: http://www.pbase.com/kocho/kayakpaddles

#20

I’d love to comment…
… but those pictures/description have my head swimming with things probably best left unsaid, so I’ll just bite my tongue. Too many things to get into, not easy to convey on-line. Things more easily conveyed/received in person, with other paddles to compare, and best if on water…

#21

Aleut
I made a hybrid out of #2 spruce that is more of a gp on one side and a slightly curved (almost flat) blade on the other and it works ok.

The ones Greyak made for me are works of art not only in form but in function. I can paddle my spruce goose ok and even get some ok speed out of it, but when it comes to kicking in that extra speed, or the control on either side, there is no comparison.



Paul

#22

Small wing
I just got a small mid wing from Patrick and I put my Epic up!! I was surprised at the difference in paddles

Im pretty strong person and thought the small mid was <br /> not for me. Pat talked me into it, from what I can tell its just a little smaller than the Epic mid. <br /> I can really spin it, its so much lighter feeling and doesnt seem to be much let off on power. I have not done any GPS and heart rate checks yet.

I couldnt be happier with the Onno small mid. I cant wait to use it in a long race. I still might use the mid in a short race, I just have not made up my mind on that.

#23

Ooops!
You can say them -:wink:

#24

mid and large
I have a midwing Fenn and a large Turbo wing. I can reach speeds with the large that I just can’t with the mid when going full sprint. The large has a far superior catch, but that may have to do with the Turbo overall design, not sure. My cadence is slower on longer paddles than my training partners when paddling the same speed. That being said, it is a big workout, and I could see someone pulling muscles or doing joint damage pulling on a large blade all day if they aren’t built for it. I love it, but it’s not for everyone. And if you go in the ocean, the midwing will be just as good if not better… trust me, when a large swell passes under you and you are going down the backside of a swell, the large blade feels like it is stuck in concrete where the mid allows you to keep the cadence a bit faster and keep momentum.

#25

when indoubt go smaller
Also what about technique/ Are you really burying the blade before you bring it back. I love www.kayaksport.net technique movie liwowski . A day with icf sprinters is the way to go fast

#26

Can someone elaborate?
A little off the original topic…



I read many references that a smaller allows for better technique development (seen these for GPs in other threads as well as for wings in this thread).



Why is this? I have some theories but they are just that. Size does matter for getting to the optimal cadence-pull force for a given combination of person/boat/distance/speed.



But how does size matter for learning?



I’ve been paddling the mid-wing with boats that range from a very slow to a relatively fast sea kayak and a slow surf ski. Generally, over 8-10 mile distance, I found the faster the boat the easier the paddling, so I suppose I have not yet reached my “optimal” combination. So smaller is definitely better in a slower boat. That’s a given.



What I’m asking is why a smaller paddle would allow me to develop a better technique than a big one? For a GP for bracing/rolling it is obvious that a smaller/thinner paddle makes “forcing” things more difficult or impossible (in the extreme - no paddle: try forcing a hand roll without proper technique).



I would think that using a larger paddle, I would get a more direct feedback on small changes in paddling style I make. I usually discover the best time to work on technique is in the last few miles I paddle - I am typically well tired by then and cheating and forcing the wrong technique at that time is much more difficult. A large paddle makes it very apparent to me if I’m trying to paddle wrong. Would a small one do this better somehow?


#27

I have not read all the replys, but yes
I think you would increase your speed by quite a bit if you upped to a mid wing.

Several years ago, I went from the mid wing down to a smaller wing because I thought the mid was working me to death, but last year I went back to the mid and noticed that my times improved.

I am guessing that the day you use a mid on that same course and conditions you’ll average 5.0



cheers,

JackL

#28

Do you lift weights?
Can you maintain decent form easier with more or less weight? When beginning new moves, it’s pretty standard advice to start light and get form down for a while before beginning to load on the weight on - as this is proven to improve overall result and reduce injuries.



Do you cycle? Can you maintain a more aerobic metabolic rate with higher or lower gear? If you’re mashing, you’ll tire faster (and with wing, tiring = technique going to hell).



Neither are really great analogies, but you get the point.



A bigger blade wing can mask inefficiencies by giving too much bite and not enough flight. Too much in drag mode (spinning/shoveling water - dragging kayak along), not enough utilization of lift (leveraging off paddle - driving kayak forward with torso/leg drive*). Paddle needs to fly for rotation and technique to dial in. A lighter load makes this easier for feel and do at a better pace, and a lot less effort can get you a lot more speed. Smaller blade is easier to do this with.



A big blade dials in fine for elite level athletes at sprint speeds in very slick hulls - where water is going by fast enough to take advantage of the bigger blade and still maintain good form. Lesser mortals cannot do this. Something has to give - and that’s pretty much always going to be technique.



I pretty much think most paddlers - wing, EP, and most GP too - are using a bit more blade than optimal for their uses and needs (similar to the trend to shorter paddles for similar reasons) - but anything works somewhat OK under 4 knots - and that’s what most do - so they’re not likely to sort it out - and it won’t matter much.



It is interesting to see how a lot of GP users tend to decrease blade size as they get better with them. Also how many wing paddlers are downsizing a bit now that more options are available.



Don’t forget - except for Patrick’s :wink: - until recently you pretty much only had mid wing/sprint wing option from most companies (and a few junior wings people didn’t consider for themselves). Result being that’s what most still have/use - and that’s what most advice/experience is going to be based on - but that doesn’t mean they’re optimal (sort of like NDK Explorer being “the” expedition kayak of choice for many because it’s been on more expeditions L).


#29

big blades and slop
Big blades will slip less with bad technique so can mask sloppy paddling to a limited extent.



As for optimum. My opinion is that the optimum size is one that doesn’t slip at your desired race pace and sustainable output. Unless you’re below 4’ per km for 2km or better you probably don’t need a large blade and a mid is probably over kill unless you can break 50’ for 10km. I wouldn’t even think about a mid unless below 60’ for 10km.

#30

Hi Jack … I would venture the
Small Endurance Race Wing helped improve your technique too : )

#31

Thanks
Since I own a small mid wing I am familiar with it. I was interested in a bigger paddle and wanted to know if anyone had actually tried a large wing, It seemed too big to me. BTW My speeds are in an 18x I just purchased last fall and have only paddled in a dry suit through the winter. I do expect to that summer speeds will be faster with any paddle. Actually paddling in the dry suit does give a nice chance to work on technique since I cannot sustain high out for too long without over heating.



I paddle 3-4 time a week so my thinking is that two different sized paddles would offer variation in my workouts. The small wing turns over nicely and gives a little pop on exit, but it just feels too small compared to mids I have borrowed. It may be that when the weather warms up (it again snowed last night!) the small wing will feel better.



Thanks for all the input.

#32

Bigger is faster.
Epic large wing 235 cm freak here. I tried to keep quiet, but since you asked about the large wing, I had to throw in my .02 worth. Can there possibly be two of us? My story…



I’m 6’4", 200, hit the gym every weekday morning, train hard in the boat 4-5 days per week for an hour, race about once per month. I am not a natural athlete. I’m old, diabetic, and sit at a desk staring at a computer all day. I gotta do this just to keep the heart pumping and the sugar under control. The kayak is the best physical and mental therapy I can find.



Started training and racing regularly with a plastic Sprinter and a Lendal 230cm with powermaster blades.



Bought an Epic Endurance 18 in 2005, along with a small wing at the recommendation of Greg and Oscar. Turns out I was faster with the Lendal and sold the wing. Eventually added 20cm extension to the Lendal and went even faster.



Bought an Epic V10 surf ski in 2006, and soon after bought an epic large wing (215-225) from a buddy at work. The ski was more stable with the wing, and I eventually tried it with the 18 and it felt pretty good, was not any slower, so I stuck with it.



Sold the ski, continued to paddle the 18 with the large wing but there were still times when I felt like I was spinning the wheels. Custom-ordered a longer Epic large wing (225-235) cm, and the speed increased.



On most days I can do almost 7mph for an hour, 6.5 for at least a couple of hours, and 6mph forever. Like you, the dry suit slows me down a bit. Sooner or later I’ll take another jump with larger blades or more length and see what happens. Onno Pat, how big can you go?



I have not had any injury or endurance issues. Last October I won the sea kayak class in a 42.5 mile race, and beat several other boats that I shouldn’t have.



Where are you located? You are welcome to try the large wings, but I guess if you’re getting snow you aren’t near Atlanta, I’ll be racing at Hunting Island SC tomorrow in case you can get there.



Good luck with your search.



Robert