Thanks seadart
I am more open to the idea of wet wear in winter than I come off as, but that’s because what most people look at is the basic 2 mill paddling wet stuff. That’s just not a plan for air temps that will be dipping into the 20’s and ice chunks floating on the rivers. We regularly see paddlers out on the Hudson up here in the depths of winter wearing at most a 2 mill neoprene shorty and a splash jacket, particularly the go-straight-fast fitness guys who are out in Epic boats and winging away. Then there is the January thaw and for a week you can see people out in shorts on 38 degree water…
The ocean water will hold a bit warmer, but not the air.
Employ Critical Thinking Here
I noticed that you have a variety of opinions to choose from here. Since many of the responders are technically more knowledgeable than I, I will offer no technical information, but instead how I think about this topic for myself. There are things in life that you can do and learn from your mistakes. This is one thing where one mistake can mean “game over”. I always err on the side of caution when one mistake can be fatal.
I have always found Brian’s advice to be right on the money.
Be safe…Lou
Surfers paddle and sit partially
– Last Updated: Oct-19-10 3:16 PM EST –
submerged ... Wetsuits work and are not useless if they get a small tear.
Edit to add ... I KNOW... you can repair them.
I’ll add to that
It’s very often a series of small mistakes that can add up to “get you”, but not always. None of them usually announce their arrival until it’s too late.
Lots of great advice here. Skills and judgment are the most important, that piece of kit between your ears. They make the other kit work. Get with the clubs, gain some experience.
Sit in kayaks are far and away warmer. Try some models in the clubs.
SINKS are only warmer —
until you swim, and then an SOT is much warmer because you are up and out of the water in 10 -30 seconds and dressed for the conditions-even if you can reenter and roll your flooded SINK you have to spend a lot of time pumping out the boat.
Drysuits are only warmer until they leak from a small tear or poor fitting gasket - then you are dead.
There is a lot of wisdom often repeated here from experts who very seldom paddle in rough conditions or cold water.
Dry suits work fine and they’re durable
A piece of duct tape will seal a small dry suit tear, IF you ever actually get one and it’s easy to patch the fabric should you need to. IMO, the fear mongering over dry suits tearing is baseless, as they’re very durable…at least Gore-Tex suits are.
Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen with any regularity? No. Is it automatically a disaster if a dry suit gets torn? No. Has any kayaker ever died because of a torn dry suit? Not that I’ve ever heard of.
More baseless fear mongering
A sink is a lot warmer in cold weather than sitting exposed on an SOT. Pumping one out is not a big deal as long as you’re not foolish enough to paddle alone in the winter and if you can roll, it’s largely a non-issue.
Please cite even ONE INSTANCE of a paddler dieing due to a torn dry suit. Can you? I’ve had intimate encounters a fair number of barnacle-encrusted rocks while wearing a dry suit with no more damage than a few scuffs to the suit, though my flesh underneath was not always so lucky. I’ve never had a rip in a suit. I’ll take that experience over theories any day.
I’ve spent a lot of time IN cold water in a dry suit and considerably more paddling ON cold water in a wide variety of conditions. I know what it can do to you, even when you’re going out fully intending to be in the water repeatedly and for significant periods of time, and dress accordingly.
If you want to wear neoprene, be my guest, but I won’t.
Not really
– Last Updated: Oct-20-10 12:25 AM EST –
Neither of my boats take on a lot of water in a re-enter and roll, in fact the Explorer comes up pretty much dry. No pumping needed, just skirt up and off. Granted that repeated tries can get some water in there, but there are ways to make that first try more sure depending on the paddler's condition and equipment available.
I am not saying that there aren't boats that would take on water, but when I've been in groups of paddlers working on a re-enter and roll probably most don't have to pump out.
As to dry suit fragility, my experience is simply that they are not so fragile. I and others I know beat the hell out of them, in rocks, in WW runs etc and no one in our group has yet seen a catastrophic failure. I know of one or two near misses that have occurred outside of this area over the last few years, but it is literally one or two.
Granted the Hudson River in the middle of winter doesn't have pounding surf. But the water and air temps are considerably colder than most of the west coast.
Tearing a Drysuit
– Last Updated: Oct-20-10 10:27 AM EST –
I've gotta wonder how often drysuits get torn. I think Daggermatt's son recently wore out a drysuit that'd been beat to heck in whitewater for years, but that's more extreme abuse than any sea kayaker could ever accomplish, even intentionally (just look at daggermatt's boats and try to imagine a sea kayak getting hit that much). Because of that, and also because this thread is about getting a relative newbie onto the water in winter, I don't think the issue of crashing into jagged rocks in surf is really on-topic. For the average sea kayaker, I just bet that that a one-in-a-million tear in the fabric would occur close to shore in less-threatening conditions.
I'm no sea kayaker, but making the implication "don't trust a drysuit" to an average paddler in average conditions sounds way off the mark to me.
was dragged over a reef upside down
my shoulder and arm had broken skin. The goretext was only lightly scuffed. I have been less worried about the robustness since.
You’re absolutely right
It’s just fear-mongering, often from people who simply don’t want to spend the money for a dry suit and are looking for a rationalization for not doing so.
TopKayaker
Tom that runs the Topkayaker SOT forum is not only the SOT expert, he also lives in the Northeast and gives lessons.
I do not give advise about that part of the country, because I have never been there
My experience
While I wouldn’t mind having a dry suit, but I’ve had good success with a 3mm farmer john and a dry top. I was initially very concerned about safety and viewed this setup as extending my paddling season, but conceded that it would probably not let me paddle all year in NC.
As the water began to cool I tested my gear at the end of each paddle to gauge safety/comfort at a particular water temp. As the water and air temp cooled I added layers under the dry top (but over the wetsuit) and continued taking a swim. I eventually added a neoprene hood as well.
The coldest day I paddled we had air temps around freezing, snow on the ground and skim of ice on the lake in the backs of coves. When I got back to shore I started the car and let it warm up as a precaution and then went for my swim. I was chilly but never concerned for my safety else I could have just run for the car. I was wet from the waist down and water had started to wick up, but I was still mostly dry under the top.
Add to the above that I have a solid roll and that my winter paddling has been exclusively flat water and I think I’m well prepared to paddle in winter without a dry suit.
my input
Or I could copy and paste Nate’s advice since it was so thorough.
Only thing I’d add is to constantly familiarize yourself with the water temp, whether it means dunking your head before every trip, or taking a quick dip in the drysuit.
The recommendation for cold-water rescue training cannot be overstated. But it is also something you can accomplish, don’t let it intimidate you.
Maine
I can’t imagine using a wetsuit while paddling up here. I know a lot of surfers who surf but winter surfing from what I have seen is a matter of short time in the water. I have not seen any of my buddies surf longer than an hour. Sometimes they bring hot water in a bucket and pour it over the wet suit before they get in. They put vaseline on their exposed flesh to keep it from freezing.
One thing that wearing a wetsuit and a sit on top kayak will do well : You will realize much sooner that you need to get out of the water.
Time - Relative…
– Last Updated: Oct-21-10 4:16 PM EST –
I typically surf 4-6 hours on weekend sessions -- in the heart of winter. I don't get cold in my wetsuit.
Think about it... if you have rolling and self (or assisted) rescue skills, why would you be in the water for more than 15 minutes max, never mind the 6-4 hours that I am mostly immersed in/exposed to?
If I were paddling in the winter -- as opposed to paddle surfing with my waveski -- I would likely downgrade from 6/5/4 wetsuit to a 4/3 (or even a 3/2 with drytop) so I don't overheat. I don't expect to be outside of the boat, if at all with "flat water" (haven't come out in flat water conditions in about 9 years), for more than 5 minutes tops to self rescue.
Again, I have two drysuits and multiple wetsuits. I don't think I am blowing smoke in making reality-based comparisons between the attributes and venues for their usage. I rarely use drysuits these days 'cause for my exertion and sweat rate, I found that I was never "dry" in one. Hey, that's me. But, then again, I don't make *blanket* statements for anyone else without knowing the other person's physical attributes/tolerances and skill levels.
sing
Thanks Sing
What makes questions like this hard is the lack of knowledge about individual skills and experience…