Fear is a needed asset. Otherwise I’d never look both ways before I cross a street.
You need to learn to brace before you roll.
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Are there any whitewater clubs near you? Even if you don’t plan on doing whitewater, many of the principles are the same and they can help you learn to roll when you’re ready. See if they offer any classes and/or if they have any pool sessions set up. I’m not a fan of Facebook, but it’s arguably the best place to find groups for specific sports (including kayaking) especially in areas/states where it may not be popular.
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@szihn I have little doubt you will master your new boat. You have a lifetime of experiences guiding your desire and work ethic. I also subscribe to your motto that I like to say as “I’m alive until I’m dead.”
On the other hand there are a lot of people in the world and reading this forum that have not prepared themselves with a lifetime of experiences that would lead them to do this the way you have chosen to do it. I watch a lot of TV shows where someone is about to try some death-defying act and they come on and tell us that this should never be tried at home. Sometimes I get the feeling your threads should come with such a warning.
My basic safety mode with our boating at a beginner level is there is something to be said for having a partner on the water. Even if the partner isn’t a coach or someone expert in rescue. When you describe high winds, wave action, having trouble with turning and stability and to top it off rock cliffs and then that situation without any observer, it is something I’m happy you feel confidant in doing alone. But I feel other people new to paddling might be well warned to avoid.
We live on a lazy little creek that 100s of people float all the time. 90% of them in rec-kayaks with the PFD being used as a seat back padding. This week we had several days of record rainfall and the water was high and faster than normal, but I went down and took a look at it and it looked like it would be fun to run and well within my skill set based on doing it many times. I looked at the reports and they were strongly advising people to stay off the river as it was unsafe. The problem being trees fell and caused dangerous strainer conditions the current was way stronger than it looked, the water quite muddy etc. I didn’t try it as people a lot smarter than me were advising against it. That didn’t stop thrill seekers though and the fire departments were being called out all day with people calling in 911 water related rescues. Boats were getting pinned right and left and people clinging to a limb were putting the first responders lives in danger.
Odd as this may seem as I’m typing this the fire call is going off again.
So far no one has been more than scrapped up a little.
It is a fun recreation activity and we all get to pick how hard we want to go at it.
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Not very near to me. I hear there are some in the Jackson area, but that’s a long drive. And I have only heard rumors but so far have not found anyone there that’s actually doing anything. Might be worth the time to get to know some of them if I can however. If I can get good enough at this to show some competence, I think I am going to try to start a club of kayakers in Riverton or Lander myself, but that’s down the road at least a year.
And Paddledog, you are the 2nd person who told me that. I understand the principal of bracing and I can do it if I know the wave is coming, but in those times I have capsized, I got caught to fast for me at my skill level to do an effective brace. So again, it’s not for lack of head knowledge, but it’s for a lack of experience and practice I’m having these problems. It’s analytical and deliberate for me at this point. It needs to become instinctual. I have a ways to go before it is.
Well Bud, I can see your points. And maybe I need to point out how I do take a large degree of precautions including the times I drive all the way around the lake to be SURE the wind is working to blow me back to the launch site and no where else.
Also I made the point several times I set things up so in the case of a failure I am blown back to land in a short period of time.
Yes I have lived a very action oriented life, but I point out, I am an older man and STILL ALIVE! That’s because there is a huge difference between fear and caution born from respect of the scenario I am dealing with.
For years I took elk hunters out into some of the most Grizzly Bear infested habitat in the world. According to US fish and Wildlife service, where I was going had more Grizzlies per square mile then any known place in the world. (including Russia) I never once had to shoot one. Why? Respect! I was armed at ALL times and I NEVER let my guard down, but by using caution and showing respect for the dangers I was able to be in places that made an attack disadvantageous for the bears, so they left me and my hunters alone. We did loose a few elk to them, but I never so much as had a hunter threatened by one, let alone attacked.
I was told the some of the best race-car drivers in the world were seat belts in their personal cars. That makes perfect since to me. Not going out because of fear of other drives doesn’t make sense to me. That’s fear. Caution is driving in a state of alertness and wearing the seat belt. Is that a guarantee of safety? NOPE!
But you can’t ever guarantee safety, however you can guarantee more hazard then you should. In the Marines and in my time working for DOD I was told by my instructors who were fresh from Vietnam and Rhodesia, “I’d rather be lucky then good” But you can’t make luck. You can make skill! You cannot make maximum skill without pushing to your maximum. So I take all the precautions I can, and I think hard about my next set-up in my training, but once I have done all I can to insure I can get out of it WHEN I fail, I go and try the next step.
Sometime I surprise myself and I don’t fail. Many times I do. But when I have on the lake and in the higher winds, I just got blown home with no more damage then a deflated ego. If I didn’t take those precaution and drive to the place the wind would save me when I fail, I could have been blown out a long way, sometimes a few miles. As it was I got blown about 300 yards TO safety. That’s a good set-up.
If I were unable to set up that kind of training I would wait and go another day.
As I said, I am past Social Security age, and I am still alive.
That was not an accident.
If you have a skeg, by all means use it in the wind. Control the boat with your foot pedals.
If you are capsizing, you need to work on bracing. Put pressure on the water to stay up right.
Edging is very important for some kinds of kayaks with a long waterline and little rocker. I have always liked rockered boats and never learned to edge.
It can be a shock to paddle in rough weather at first. Work on your skills and you will be much better prepared next time.
I just spent time on the ACA website for Wyoming. I found a significant number of coaches in either Cody or Lander. One is barely over an hour from Boysen State Park, the other is a smidge over an hour and a half.
Odds are good that many of these are WW folks, but as someone said above skills transfer. Jim and l would not infrequently drive a couple of hours each way to take a class. I regularly drive an hour to one of my chorus rehearsals.
I did not look for classes, but the number of listed coaches within an hour and a half from the state park suggest they may be happening too. I didn’t see a Wendy, but maybe she is an independent.
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My 17 foot boat has a retractable skeg, but not a rudder, so it doesn’t steer me at all, If just keeps my stern from drifting badly in wind.
The boat has some degree of rocker and soft chines so I do have something I can turn and control as soon as I learn to keep balance and get to a point I can brace without thinking about it first. In calmer water I am turning it well and pretty quickly now. but in choppy water I get swamped all to often with no skirt. (I should have oine for it tomorrow or Tuesday)
As of now, my 10-1/2 foot Old Town Loon is far easier for me to control even in high chop and wind then my 17 foot boat. I have learned to keep the Loon upright by edging it and bracing it, but being wider, it’s far more stable. If I am cross ways to the wave I have to lift the edge of the boat to go over the wave instead of allowing the waves to crash down on it and I brace to keep from flipping over. If the wave looks really big I quickly turn and take it head on. I can turn my Loon 90 degrees in one stroke and it takes me about 1 -2 seconds to do it. Now that I have a spray skirt for the Loon I don’t have the cockpit flood when the wave breaks over it’s bow. Before I got the skirt I could do OK but for the boat filling up a little bit on each wave.
I know I can do the same things and far more with the 17 foot boat, but so far it’s not been as easy to learn. I just need more time in the waves with it. I can turn my loon in about 15 MPH wind 180 degrees in 2 strokes and it takes me about 5-6 seconds to be going the other way. In my Chatham it takes me 4-5 strokes and takes me about 10-14 seconds if the skeg is up. With it down it’s even slower and takes me about 8 strokes
I see people doing it with the same boat on the sea and doing it in 1/4 the time and in 2-3 strokes, so I know the boat can do it. I just can’t do it (yet)
I have to believe the Chatham going to be better then the loon for rougher waters, but that’s going to take me some time.
I bought the Chatham KNOWING it was going to challenge me. I doubt I am going to outgrow it any time soon. I think I may be close to maxing out what the Loon can do now. So it was time to step up. That I did. Lets see how much I can do with the Chatham in a year. But in the learning I am having a lot of fun.
Celia, I must not be doing this right. I found only 2. How are you finding them? I called the only 2 I found. One answered the phone and told me they were totally booked for this year and the other I have not been able to talk to yet (Helen Wilson) but we have corresponded by e-mail.
So, can you show me how you are doing it? I tried the internet and struck out with 2 of them not even having the phone number listed work but I get recordings saying “the number was not valid”. The phone books on line are useless. Besides, you have to know where to look, town by town for the phone book to help, so if you have no knowledge at all, you have no place to start. I am sure if I took several hours going town by town I may find one, (by going to their yellow pages and simply looking up “Kayak”) but so far I have been busy with my own business and have not had the hours to try to dig them up. You have found them right off. How’d you do that?
The one in Thermopolis is the one that has the lease for the Tribe in the Reservation and they shoot the canyon on lease from the tribe, but they only “guide” rafters and kayakers, but the kayaks they use are the sit on top type and the 2 person one that take tourist out but they only work in the wind river canyon and it’s not legal for anyone to float the river through the reservation without a tribal permit. So that groups of folks is busy, but they are not the same kind of business as those selling gear or knowledge on the sport. The Thermopolis outfit is geared for the tourists, to take them on a float trip but the tourists can’t legally do it themselves at all.
Cody is only about 2 hours from me. I’d go to Cody to learn. But I never saw any listings there. Now that you tell me someone is there I’ll try their phone number if I can find out who they are.
Are these the folks you were talking about Celia?
http://greater-yellowstone.com/Cody-WY/kayaking.html
Try typing “wyoming” into the ACA search box.
As someone said above, l did a search on the ACA website for instruction in Wyoming. Have you looked at the ACA site? It is what l and multiple people here have been suggesting. I believe you thanked kayakhank for the suggestion at least 10 days ago.
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I don’t have a skeg but according to this (pointed to in Wiki) you can actually control the steering somewhat by how far the skeg is down. http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/pages/expertcenter/equipment/skeg/Skeg-1.shtml
Once your boat starts to turn a positive feedback loop kicks in. If left to its own devices the boat will veer harder and harder (and dump more and more speed), requiring more and more effort to correct. The key is to watch the water moving at your bow and adjust early so that it veers equally to the left and right with each stroke.
If you are hard into this self-veering process you might not be able to paddle hard enough to correct in one stroke, and the boat can veer back past that point before you get the next stroke in. At that point sticking it (braking) on the other side is the only option.
In a boat that weather cocks, which is the usual bias…
Skeg up allows wind to push the stern up which points the bow into the wind.
Stern down stiffens the stern so the wind does not point the boat into the wind as easily.
Graduations between have in between effects.
It isn’t that complicated…
The best time to paddle is early morning, to late morning. Before the sun heats things up and the winds start ripping. Like this lady here did Wyoming: Kayaking the Boysen - YouTube The NWS is pretty good about predicting when high winds can occur, check out their websites and detailed forecasts for your area. Best bet is to be on the water at first light and home for lunch.
I think you would do well to take some lessons and spend more time on the water and less on forums.
From what you have described I would guarantee it was the float on the front deck that prevented you turning into the wind, people have the opposite problem when they have a retractable rudder raised on the back deck.
You asked about lee cocking, the lee is the downwind direction and lee cocking is when the kayak turns downwind. Conversely weather cocking is when the kayak turns into the wind.
Jackson Hole Kayak teach rolling and there may be others. Kayaking and Rafting Lessons and Tours | Rendezvous River Sports - Rendezvous River Sports The legendary Mick Hopkinson used to spend summers in Jackson, I don’t know if he still does, so I’m sure there are whitewater kayakers around.
If you do try rolling by yourself have someone video it as it makes it much easier to solve problems. What you think you did and what you actually did are often very different things when you are upside down in cold water. IMO one of the best approaches to rolling is to think of it in terms of weight transfer. You get your mass near the surface then lift your knee and roll your hips to turn the kayak right way up before lifting your body out of the water. If you don’t get that part right what you do with the paddle is irrelevant.
Good luck.
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…
well you folks are right. I was out for about 6 hours yesterday and I am getting a lot better feel for the edging now. it took me a few “dumps” and re-tries, but by the 3rd hours I was keeping the edge for longer periods of time with no big effort. It seemed impossible at first, but after 2 hours of nothing but working on that alone, (Well, combined with bracing for obvious reasons)
So, by the later afternoon here come the wind. I paddled back and decided to tie in the line float and see if it was actually acting as a sail. Yup! The wind was only about 12-14 MPH yesterday, but I sure could feel the difference. I could turn my boat, but it was a bit of a work-out to do it. So I jumped out, untied the float and just let it drag behind me, this time tied to the stern. I did a reentry and started paddling again. BINGO, all the resistance was gone instantly.
THANKS FOLKS! You 2 were exactly correct!
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You mentioned in your initial post that you flipped when you tried to really “dig in” to paddle hard. I wondered if you might be unintentionally leaning to the side when you do that?
Just a thought to be aware of.