Yanoer…
I'm not a racer by anybody definition. Too lazy for long term exertion.......
Just "pondering" about different boats & suggesting some "fun" activities if you ever get bored.
If you are ever in my area; would be happy for you to stop by & visit. We could take a few boats down off the racks, and go "mess around in boats" on the lake.
BOB
P.S. I think my Blackhawk Shadow SS Special would give the Sojourn a race. Paddled one?
Argosy faster
I had my Argosy on a shallow river two weeks ago. No matter how many times CEW wants to point out the waterline length of that boat, it will out accelerate and is flat out faster than a Yellowstone Solo. On this trip, I sprinted away from the group I was with when I felt something that normal is only associated with racing hulls, I popped the hull and started that thing planing. I was able to keep pushing the boat until I was reading 7mph. Try that in a Wildfire. Kruger designed one hell of a boat.
Bob follows my logic too, Argosy and Wildfire (YS) are both great boats for the poster. The Wilderness and Rockstar are too big, and if you want to look at other 14ish boats, there are a few out there that I could recommend too.
Haven’t paddled a Blackhawk Shadow
of any variety - yet. I’ve heard good things about some of them.
If I’m ever down in your area, I’d be very pleased to paddle with you and to drool over your fleet.
speed
I don’t think I ever claimed YellowStone was faster than Argosy. They both have ~13.7’ waterline lengths and 26.5-27" max waterline widths. Given Wenonah’s propensity for long fast hulls, I would suspect it has finer lines, and thereby is faster than YS, while the YellowStone, with more volume, can float more stuff.
Both have a Length/Width ration of ~6, and a speed to length number of ~1.55, so the two wave wash, theoretical max hull speed is, Sq. Rt. of 13.7’ length, [3.70] X 1.55 = 5.74 mph.
Racers commonly exceed Theoretical Hull Speed, but 7mph is a testiment to Nermal’s power and skill.
Listen to Nermal
he’s a heck of good paddler and specializes in fast long distance trips. He probably has more miles under the hull of his Arg than just about any other paddler out there. Never mind the length to width ratio being the final decider, or even one of the more important measurements, because that formula totally ignores how the hull is shaped. My whitewater canoe is same length and width as Arg, but tops out at about 3.5 mph. I’ve pushed the Arg well past 5 and I have no doubt it can be pushed to 6 and 7 with a competent paddler. What counts is how the hull acts in the water, and the YS is a slug compared to the Arg and the Arg doesn’t mind carrying a load whereas the YS gets more sluggish the more you put in it. I tested these two boats extensively and would never consider the YS for Brammy’s intended use. The Wilderness would be a good choice for Brammy but it’s too similar in turning characteristics to the Swift Shearwater he already has. The Swift Osprey comes closest IMHO to the boat that Brammy is looking for. BTW, in Navy test tank a smooth aluminum canoe compared to a battered aluminum canoe was not any faster, which kind of blows holes in the fuzzy hull theory, too.
And there you have it
Fervent Belief and anecdotal experience always trumps numbers. Kinda.
Science tries to approach and understand facts, and measured numbers help with comparisons that help make predictions. That is why canoe/kayak designers use numbers.
It's questionable whether YellowStone and Argosy are worth working up block and prismatic coefficients for. Both are entry - intermediate level hulls, compromised by manufacturing considerations, and aren't very interesting to paddle.
But if it's a belief that of two boats of equal length and width one has finer lines and is both faster and carries greater burden, than the other, then facts, as best explained with measurable numbers, are useless against metaphysical belief[s].
So it goes.
fun stuff
Fun to see how far we can go with objective versus subjective characterization…even magazines like Road and Track struggle with how to combine subjective (what we like) with objective (perhaps what we should like!). In the auto industry it’s not yet possible to characterize vehicle attributes 100% objectively.
I’d be curious to know if it’s possible to fully characterize the differences between the Argosy and the Yellowstone objectively. My take is that the Argosy is kind of an odd hull design…very sharp entry, kind of unusual rocker (way more in front than back?) and quite a flat bottom…it also impressed me as a high volume solo (lot’s of room in the boat). I remember that it hummed right along when cruising like a proper Wenonah and that the transition between vertical and leaned over was a bit abrupt (like other Wenonahs!). I think the Yellowstone has much more rocker and rounder shoulders and would be much more comfortable playing in whitewater.
At least it should be easy to measure the volume between the two boats!
Just my two cents…with no data.
Which is better in wind on open water?
I’ve been out on lakes recent in some pretty windy conditions and am generally pleased with my royalex Wildfire’s handling in these conditions and am wondering how the Argosy compares in windy conditions - especially with smallish paddlers, such as me - 5’6" and 155 lbs.
I’ve had my Argosy
out in windy conditions with about 60 lbs of gear and I weigh 155. Was pleased at the way this boat handled the wind and waves. Once I get a spray cover for the boat it will even be better. Was surprised that this boat, with it’s rather finer entry lines for a river boat, rode over the waves. Maybe because of the light load.
Sandpiper
I paddled Gene’s Sandpiper & someone’s Yellowstone when deciding between the two before purchase. This discussion about paddler size is interesting b/c my “impression” was that the Sandpiper was more responsive to body movement; felt a little more maneuverable. I went with the Yellowstone based on more concrete statistics for what I was looking for.
After I paddled my Yellowstone for awhile, this impression faded slightly. However, I still have a slight love affair going on with the Sandpiper. There is a green one for sale too!
I am thinking about going on a strict budget so I can buy more canoes. Is this a disease?