Another “Boat Nerd” Here
I have enjoyed your reviews and musings on the different solo canoes. I guess i too am a certifiable “Boat nerd” also on the quest to find that “Perfect” stable of boats. I’m certain there are many others out here that feel the same.
I can remember when my paddling consisted of a river trip a couple times a month while awaiting the next “Big trip” I was planning. But now, thanks to medical issues and expenses, those “Big trips” aren’t possible and I live for those couple of short trips a week and the opportunities to paddle different boats looking for that “Perfect canoe.”
I have thoroughly enjoyed paddling vicariously through you while you sample and muse upon different hulls. Please, keep it up! I’m certain I’m not the only “Canoe Nerd” out here that is enjoying your quest to find canoe mecca (LOL)! WW
I invite Disagreement…
By the way, I invite disagreement on my conclusions above and would like to hear others share their opinions, whether or not the are the same as mine.
However....just plain criticism that assumes that my methods must be flawed, that I don't know what I am talking about, or irrational statements that I could have gone on wilderness trips had I not spent so much time making mental notes about my boats I have owned are really not necessary and add no value.
thanks
Matt
review
The one boat you tested that I have a lot experience in is the Supernova. I think your impressions pretty much mirror mine. Except with 6" additional height, the boat doesn't feel too big for me to have good control. But I have tried to discourage others in your height range against it, you included I think. As far as not having a secondary stability point at which to rest, what I always did was tilt the boat so that my left (onside) knee was completely at the bottom of the boat. It's a great way to rest completely. But it also created a habit that didn't play well with other hulls like the Osprey. I agree with you that it is a fast boat for its class.
So what WW boat are you getting?
yeah…
it’s just a little big. big enough to where I did not feel I could man handle the boat as much as I would like to when necessary.
As far as the secondary I was referring more to the fact that it doesn’t have that really well and discernable edge on which to rest. Still balances well but is not as defineable as on other boats that have harder chines.
I am getting a used Probe 13…probably will go through a bunch of whitewater boats too but that is a safe bet with which to start.
I resisted getting a true whitewater boat for a long time.
i am going to paddle Little Falls on the Potomac River with it tomorrow.
matt
You can paddle a WW boat on flat water.
You might get frustrated.
You can paddle a flat water boat on whitewater. You might get hurt.
Nice Reviews
Nice write ups, Matt. Seems to me if I was looking for a high-end solo canoe, that’d be a valuable set of notes. Suggest you cut and paste over to the reviews section of the web site so that people looking for user reviews will have a resource.
Not everybody has access to the water and the gumption to go paddle like you have been doing. For those of you who don’t know Matt, he paddles about every day, including winter, in the dark, and in what he calls “interesting” conditions, and what the rest of us call a gale warning. So, I’m glad you took the time to set down your observations for those of us who can’t put the hundreds of hours into comparing canoes.
I’m looking forward to Matt’s Notes on WhiteWater Boats!
~~Chip
How about a Probe review …
I see it’s for sale already. What didn’t you like?
Height and Weight?
Matt what is your size? It is relevant to your reviews but I could not find it here.
Thanks
Size
Good point. That is very relevant to my reviews. I am 5’8 and about 200 pounds so I a pretty short and stocky build. That may have something to do with why I did not like the Wildfire as much as I thought I would have.
matt
Thanks, Matt
I found your analyses very informative.
Size and Fit
I’m conscious that height and proportions are not the same thing: some people my height are 2-3" longer in the leg… and all other things being equal, I reckon that has a BIG impact on canoe “fit” - and I’m convinced that the same hull must feel different to people who fit in a different way.
Of course, all other things are rarely equal… and seat height is one such thing. For example, I’ve taken to the 28.5" beam Flashfire despite being 6’ tall… but the seat’s mounted almost at gunwale height (came that way) and I kneel pretty high (and am comfortable sitting high on the rare occasions when I don’t kneel) - but I’ve seen smaller paddlers in Flashfires with a much lower body position and with the gunwales nearer their armpits.
Brings me to a query: what conclusions have you come to about fit through these tests of many and varied open canoes - with hugely different waterline beams.
responses…
On fit…I found that for sit and switch boats that I liked the fit of the Advantage better than the Magic. It was narrower and I felt more connected to the boat and better able to get a vertical paddle.
For Kneeling boats I found that the Wildfire and Merlin were quite narrow and yielded a narrower stance for my shorter legs (I have a longer torso and shorter legs).
Then in order of width of knee spread come the Osprey, the Guide and then the Supernova. The Nova is too wide for my knees and just too wide in general.
The other boats fit okay, but are a matter of what you get used to as well.
Unfortunately though I believe that a boat’s ability to handle bigger waves and water are largely a function of volume, width and freeboard. So regardless of what fit you prefer if you want to run bigger water you need a bigger boat in my opinion.
Perfect example is that the YS solo was a very comfortable fit for me but just not big enough for class III drops and wave trains.
On the probe……well I didn’t care for it but I also didn’t give it too much of a chance. I took it on a short class III run. It was certainly more capable of handling big waves and drops than anything I had paddled before, and was more maneuverable as well with all that rocker compared to my non-whitewater boats, but I just did not feel in total control of the boat. Probably because I am not used to a true WW boat, but I did not feel in good control and was missing eddies and getting pushed around when trying to ferry, etc.
I feel in much better control of my MR Guide and it handles the water that I run so maybe I just want to stick with it for now rather than a true WW boat. Plus I just didn’t have fun paddling it like I do with the Guide.
Matt
I too resisted a dedicated WW boat
… for a goodly while. The biggest thing I had to get used to when jumping in my first WW boat was how to apply power without turning the boat. My guess is that’s what you were contending with too. It takes a while.
Boat Nerds and Paddling
I'll tell you what: I've gleaned enough info about the original poster, from people who actually paddle with him on a regular basis, to conclude that his interest in boat performance is hardly causing him to miss out on quality time on the water. I'd be pretty confident he's "enjoying" more time on the water than a lot of us. And if he "enjoys" paying attention to how each boat moves and maneuvers, does that mean that the guy in the sun-deformed Coleman must be more admirable as a paddler or something?
Bravo!
All of what you said here (and the previous post) is just way too obvious, but “obviously” it needed to be “clarified”, and you hit the nail on the head when you did it. In any case, I’ll take a hundred positive, enthusiastic posts like yours over any and all posts from a person who, if memory serves, has never posted for any purpose except to tell others that they are wrong or uninformed (or that they aren’t truly hard-core, or that they don’t get way out into the boondocks, or that they don’t actually paddle very far, and so on and so on). I really enjoy your brand of enthusiasm, and I’ve picked up quite a few tidbits about boats I have never paddled too. Don’t stop being a boat nerd. I like it.
perfectionist + MOS
I wanted to say on the other thread (but I have been incommunicado): Given your MOS and perfectionist nature, I get where you are coming from now.
You have to admit, for someone not understanding the nature of your inquiries, the frequency may appear odd without any context (which we now have).
yes…
that was part of it. I did notice that. That is where I do admit that part of my not liking it was due to being unfamiliar with WW boats.
Still not sure about whether I want to try to learn to paddle a true ww boat or just stick with the Guide.
The run we did was fairly boney and I would have felt much more in control picking my way through the rocks in my Guide.
I did fine in the probe and the kayakers I was with said it looked like I did well despite my comments that I didn’t like the new boat, but I just did not feel like I could thread the needle as I can with my Guide.
I’ll see…
thank you…
yes, I admit it would seem more than odd with no context. I am an obsessive perfectionist and pretty intense about anything I get interested in. And my 8 years in the Army was as a Field Artillery officer which is a extemely detail-oriented branch (out of necessity of course) and combined with 4 years at West Point and I am a bit of a brain washed obsessive perfectionist.
It’s just how I am about things.
But I actually do paddle A LOT too and not just sit on the couch and pontificate about boats.
Matt
Jealousy
I wish I had unlimited time and funds to be able to:
1: Buy / sell as many high-end boats as I want
2: Live on the water
3: Go paddling up to twice per day
4: Post a lot on P-Net
I’m assuming you are retired? It’s fine that you have decided this is going to be your hobby, some people obsess about cars and motorcycles in the same way.
Good reviews, especially interesting is your comments about MR Guide vs. Freedom Solo. Royalex quality must not be what it used to be.
You should spend more time learning to paddle the WW boat. I found that flatwater practice in a WW boat did a great deal to strengthen my strokes and boat control. That experience has trickeled down to my flatwater boating in a big way. If you can sit on a beach ball and make it go forward with a J-Stroke, it will be heavenly when you do it in your Osprey. Kind of like running with weights on your ankles then taking them off for the race.
I agree
One needs to paddle a whitewater boat at least a half dozen times on flatwater and whitewater to get an idea of its capabilities.
Some of the boats that eventually became my favorite designs (Ocoee, Viper) I absolutely hated the first time I was in them.