How about a Probe review …
I see it’s for sale already. What didn’t you like?
Height and Weight?
Matt what is your size? It is relevant to your reviews but I could not find it here.
Thanks
Size
Good point. That is very relevant to my reviews. I am 5’8 and about 200 pounds so I a pretty short and stocky build. That may have something to do with why I did not like the Wildfire as much as I thought I would have.
matt
Thanks, Matt
I found your analyses very informative.
Size and Fit
I’m conscious that height and proportions are not the same thing: some people my height are 2-3" longer in the leg… and all other things being equal, I reckon that has a BIG impact on canoe “fit” - and I’m convinced that the same hull must feel different to people who fit in a different way.
Of course, all other things are rarely equal… and seat height is one such thing. For example, I’ve taken to the 28.5" beam Flashfire despite being 6’ tall… but the seat’s mounted almost at gunwale height (came that way) and I kneel pretty high (and am comfortable sitting high on the rare occasions when I don’t kneel) - but I’ve seen smaller paddlers in Flashfires with a much lower body position and with the gunwales nearer their armpits.
Brings me to a query: what conclusions have you come to about fit through these tests of many and varied open canoes - with hugely different waterline beams.
responses…
On fit…I found that for sit and switch boats that I liked the fit of the Advantage better than the Magic. It was narrower and I felt more connected to the boat and better able to get a vertical paddle.
For Kneeling boats I found that the Wildfire and Merlin were quite narrow and yielded a narrower stance for my shorter legs (I have a longer torso and shorter legs).
Then in order of width of knee spread come the Osprey, the Guide and then the Supernova. The Nova is too wide for my knees and just too wide in general.
The other boats fit okay, but are a matter of what you get used to as well.
Unfortunately though I believe that a boat’s ability to handle bigger waves and water are largely a function of volume, width and freeboard. So regardless of what fit you prefer if you want to run bigger water you need a bigger boat in my opinion.
Perfect example is that the YS solo was a very comfortable fit for me but just not big enough for class III drops and wave trains.
On the probe……well I didn’t care for it but I also didn’t give it too much of a chance. I took it on a short class III run. It was certainly more capable of handling big waves and drops than anything I had paddled before, and was more maneuverable as well with all that rocker compared to my non-whitewater boats, but I just did not feel in total control of the boat. Probably because I am not used to a true WW boat, but I did not feel in good control and was missing eddies and getting pushed around when trying to ferry, etc.
I feel in much better control of my MR Guide and it handles the water that I run so maybe I just want to stick with it for now rather than a true WW boat. Plus I just didn’t have fun paddling it like I do with the Guide.
Matt
I too resisted a dedicated WW boat
… for a goodly while. The biggest thing I had to get used to when jumping in my first WW boat was how to apply power without turning the boat. My guess is that’s what you were contending with too. It takes a while.
Boat Nerds and Paddling
– Last Updated: Jul-12-10 4:59 PM EST –
I'll tell you what: I've gleaned enough info about the original poster, from people who actually paddle with him on a regular basis, to conclude that his interest in boat performance is hardly causing him to miss out on quality time on the water. I'd be pretty confident he's "enjoying" more time on the water than a lot of us. And if he "enjoys" paying attention to how each boat moves and maneuvers, does that mean that the guy in the sun-deformed Coleman must be more admirable as a paddler or something?
Bravo!
All of what you said here (and the previous post) is just way too obvious, but “obviously” it needed to be “clarified”, and you hit the nail on the head when you did it. In any case, I’ll take a hundred positive, enthusiastic posts like yours over any and all posts from a person who, if memory serves, has never posted for any purpose except to tell others that they are wrong or uninformed (or that they aren’t truly hard-core, or that they don’t get way out into the boondocks, or that they don’t actually paddle very far, and so on and so on). I really enjoy your brand of enthusiasm, and I’ve picked up quite a few tidbits about boats I have never paddled too. Don’t stop being a boat nerd. I like it.
perfectionist + MOS
I wanted to say on the other thread (but I have been incommunicado): Given your MOS and perfectionist nature, I get where you are coming from now.
You have to admit, for someone not understanding the nature of your inquiries, the frequency may appear odd without any context (which we now have).
yes…
that was part of it. I did notice that. That is where I do admit that part of my not liking it was due to being unfamiliar with WW boats.
Still not sure about whether I want to try to learn to paddle a true ww boat or just stick with the Guide.
The run we did was fairly boney and I would have felt much more in control picking my way through the rocks in my Guide.
I did fine in the probe and the kayakers I was with said it looked like I did well despite my comments that I didn’t like the new boat, but I just did not feel like I could thread the needle as I can with my Guide.
I’ll see…
thank you…
yes, I admit it would seem more than odd with no context. I am an obsessive perfectionist and pretty intense about anything I get interested in. And my 8 years in the Army was as a Field Artillery officer which is a extemely detail-oriented branch (out of necessity of course) and combined with 4 years at West Point and I am a bit of a brain washed obsessive perfectionist.
It’s just how I am about things.
But I actually do paddle A LOT too and not just sit on the couch and pontificate about boats.
Matt
Jealousy
I wish I had unlimited time and funds to be able to:
1: Buy / sell as many high-end boats as I want
2: Live on the water
3: Go paddling up to twice per day
4: Post a lot on P-Net
I’m assuming you are retired? It’s fine that you have decided this is going to be your hobby, some people obsess about cars and motorcycles in the same way.
Good reviews, especially interesting is your comments about MR Guide vs. Freedom Solo. Royalex quality must not be what it used to be.
You should spend more time learning to paddle the WW boat. I found that flatwater practice in a WW boat did a great deal to strengthen my strokes and boat control. That experience has trickeled down to my flatwater boating in a big way. If you can sit on a beach ball and make it go forward with a J-Stroke, it will be heavenly when you do it in your Osprey. Kind of like running with weights on your ankles then taking them off for the race.
I agree
One needs to paddle a whitewater boat at least a half dozen times on flatwater and whitewater to get an idea of its capabilities.
Some of the boats that eventually became my favorite designs (Ocoee, Viper) I absolutely hated the first time I was in them.
well…
No actually I am not retired…but I am recently single so I make as much time as I like to paddle. I often paddle after work and stay on the water until 8 or 8:30 and do so year round so I log a lot of hours on the water.
And I have a lot of vacation days and take a lot of time off to paddle.
Basically I never watch TV or do that kind of stuff that most people spend a fairly large amount of time doing every day so that gives me more time to post and to paddle.
I totally agree with you all on the whitewater boat. I fully realize I need more time in it. I paddled it some more this morning on flatwater and have a better feel for it. It is much different from paddling a non-whitewater specific boat….however, despite the fact that I know that I could improve in it drastically with some practice I am not sure it is something I like.
I was able to control it fairly well this morning but found that paddling it is somewhat of a matter of both continuously carving circles and controlled over-steer. This may be more effective for whitewater, but may also not be my cup of tea ultimately.
I am more used to sea kayaks and to canoes that carve / track better through a turn and that will stern skid / spin when you want them to but only when you want them to as opposed to constantly wanting to do so.
Just seems like a much different cup of tea and different technique / slightly different skill set. But maybe one that I am not interested in developing….we’ll see.
On royalex…I think that the thickness of the layup may be different. I think that most manufacturers now use what used to be Royalexlite….although I am not sure.
One other thing I can say about royalex is that I have been told it takes over a year to fully cure. It is possible that the Freedom solo I had was fairly recently delivered from the factory (I bought that one new) and therefore may not have been fully cured.
Matt
For nearly all whitewater boats
once the stern starts to skid out significantly, it wants to keep going and will be difficult to bring back on line.
You can control the tendency of the stern to skid out with boat heel and balance it against the turning effect of your forward stroke. The Probe has a bit of edge. Keeping it heeled will resist somewhat the stern skidding out. Dropping the boat flat in the water will accentuate the skid, typically.
At some point, you may want to try a boat with more edge than the Probe as the chine can be used to give directional control when carving turns and resists the tendency of the boat to get “smeared” downstream in the current.
I would stick with the Probe for now, however. For most people, hard-chined boats have a pretty steep learning curve.
yeah…
All that you said is about as I had figured. In messing around with it on flat water I did find that you could achieve a balance with some edge to where the boat was carving slightly to your onside and offset by your paddle stroke, therefore going relatively straight.
Once the stern started to skid bad though it was not coming back.
I found that making turns required more subtle strokes in order to avoid over steer.
I think that the harder chined boats would be much like paddling a really hard chine sea kayak like the Greenlander Pro and have track on a turn a bit less when carving on edge and have a similar sort of stability when on edge but perhaps a feel of instability when upright…tender primary with good secondary when heeled over sufficiently.
that’s my guess.
Matt
The Solo Canoe Review! Watch Bob
"Flatt" Foote, Karen “Freeform” Knight, and a host of pnet wannabe’s as they dance froth across the water. See them dance Cab Calloway’s “Minnie the Moocher” and watch the Charleston paddle drill. Fall slowly asleep…
similar boat
I have a 05 version of the Freedom Solo and a friend has an older Guide, not sure of the year. I don’t find much difference between the two boats in regards to flex of the hull or weight. The main difference I see is in the quality of the fit of the decks. The Guide is much nicer. Other than that, pretty much the same. I wouldn’t be surprised if the FS’s vary from year to year though with the Confluence quality control.
I just picked up a used Probe 12 (now 13) a couple weeks ago. I took it out on a lake and man is it a lot different from the Freedom Solo. Although its going to take me a little while to get used to it, I actually liked the maneuverability, and didn’t have the feeling that I was going for a swim. A couple more flatwater or class I trips are in my future before looking for more whitewater in it though.
A couple years ago I tried to make the change from paddling a Dagger Legend to a Mohawk XL12. That didn’t go very well. I didn’t like the lack of initial stability compared to the Legend. I felt that I had to work to just stay upright on flatwater. I wish I hadn’t given up on it so quickly as I think I’d been fine in that boat eventually.
Daryl
speed of composite wildfire
Matt, your saying –
“The Osprey is DEFINITELY faster than the YS solo. You don’t even need a GPS to determine that…and it makes sense too given that I am comparing a composite Osprey to a royalex YS solo which has blunter entry lines, etc. Comparing the two composite models would be a more fair comparison.”
– makes it sound as if you didn’t do speed tests with the composite WildFire you tested. Any opinions on its speed?
I ask because I owned a kev/glass WildFire for 11 years, then traded it in for a carbon/kevlar RapidFire with a canoe seat. I did this for the sake of speed, knowing I would lose some nimbleness. I would like to get some maneuverability and seaworthiness back, without losing too much speed, and I am considering a DragonFly or an Osprey. If you have information on the speed of WildFire versus Osprey, that would be helpful.
Mark