the L/W ratio
is lower for the Wild as opposed to the Osprey.
That indicates that the Wild is slower than Osprey. Its kind of like a perfect house. You always wind up with a balancing act.
One of the really hard things to judge is speed. Hull scratches can really slow you down and often you are comparing two different hulls with different amounts of wear.
This is not my pontificating but what I have learned from John Winters and DY who indeed are experts.
The new Colden WildFire seems stiffer than the Bell WildFires but thats a genarality ss I have only paddled the carbon fiber old Bell Wild EX( which was kind of a special layup) and they were not paddled at the same time, However thats getting into hair splitting territory.
Speed = length, Tracking = L/w ratio
– Last Updated: Jul-19-10 9:34 PM EST –
Hull speed is pretty much a function of length unless the designer/builder has done something egregious. The formula is Sq Root of waterline length, in feet, X 1.55 for theoretical mph, keeping in mind no one ever won a race at or below hull speed.
Roughly, we get 1/3 mph per each additional ft, which is why it is otiose to compare 14, 15 and 16 foot hulls. Of course the longer are faster; but they are nor as maneuverable and don't turn as tightly.
Another number that helps describe speed is prismatic co-efficient, the centerline waterline shape and the length determining the prism. Difficult to compute, but basically a specific measure of fineness of lines.
Waterline Length/wl Width gives us a hip pocket look at block coefficient, a number that co-relates with tracking ability and somewhat with forward efficiency.
Reviews without controls and numbers are anecdotal, i.e. folk tales. We need many paddlers, sorted by size and skill level on the same course[s] in similar conditions to control for bias.
We need numbers to compare hulls in different performance factors; speed, turning radius, stability under similar conditions.
And we need to compare similar boats. It is completely useless to compare a composite boat with an ABS unit. Length, entry lines, stem radii, hollows, stiffness and flex are all different between the two materials.
Even more frustrating, one cannot compare composite hulls in new and used condition - the used hull will have significantly more skin friction than a new hull. Either all must be new or all need be masked off and the waterlines sanded to the same grit.
All this may be why the remaining canoe magazines do not do real comparison pieces. It would be quite expensive and laborious.
charlie is right
– Last Updated: Jul-19-10 6:40 AM EST –
....of course....
You would need many paddlers in various conditions to make a definite statements about one boat vs. another in absolute terms.
These are just my observations on how these boats performed for me. Your results may vary.
As far as numbers, etc, I did do quantitative testing for speed for most of the boats, but not for all.
I did not bother with the YS solo because it was certainly slower than the Osprey, but as Charlie said they were different materials and there is no question that the Osprey would be faster given its composite construction.
On the composite Wilfire I had, I just didn't like it. I paddled it twice and did not like it at all so I did really no testing on it; however, I can subjectively say that in the two times i paddled it the Wildfire did not feel as fast or as maneuverable as the Osprey to me....and that may be reasonable given my 200 pounds weight for which the Osprey woudl probably be better suited.
And while we can't make categorical comments about one boat vs. another based upon non-quantitative comparison by a single paddler, we all do have to admit that when we paddle one boat back to back with another we can feel which one is more maneuverable than another, which one accelerates better, etc.....for us...and dont necessarily need to be able to quantify it.
My opinions here are just that....opinions...and I do acknowledge that, but they were carefully formed and done so with a minimal amount of bias. I have no particular bias to try to say that one boat is better than another. I just want to keep the ones that paddle best for me and am not looking to try to confirm a pre-formed hypothesis, etc. In fact it often turns out that the boat that I find better for me is NOT the one I would have suspected of being better: examples are the composite Wildfire which I absolutely thought I would like better than the Osprey but did not. Not to say the Wildfire is not a fantastic boat, but I preferred the Osprey. Again, may be because of my weight.
Another example is the Merlin and Osprey. I really thought that the Merlin would be significantly faster. It was not. It was faster by a hair but not enough to really make a difference to me.
A final example was the Advantage and Magic. The Advantage was faster and did track better but was not the huge increase in speed I was thinking it would be, confirmed by GPS; however, that boat I did not paddle all that much so my testing was limited. I became sold on the Magic over the Advantage largely due to peoples' comments on performance in wind and waves which I did not get to test out myself as it was during the dead-calm period of the middle of last summer.
Matt
Osprey vs Wildfire (composite)
Owning both now I feel I can do a reasonable comparison.
Both are highly manuverable touring/tripping boats. Both hit the wall somewhere around 4 - 5 mph. The Osprey is easier to cruise/more efficient up to that wall. The Osprey is dryer in waves. The Wildfire is narrower and carves more predictably. The Wildfire is more comfortable heeled to the rail and beyond. The Osprey heels to the tumblehome nicely but strongly resists going farther.
Don’t ask me to choose between them. I won’t.
Twice?
Why buy a boat if you are only going to paddle it twice?
John Winters on tracking and turning
Course stability [“tracking”] improves with:
– A lower block coefficient (CB)
– Increased L/B ratio
– Stern-down trim
– Increased hull profile aft
– Increased L/H ratio (Length to draft)
Course stability is slightly affected by:
– Location of LCB
– Mid-section shape
– Waterline shape
– CP within normal limits
Maneuverability is improved by:
– Decreasing underwater profile with increasing effect at the ends
– Increasing vertical prismatic coefficient (CVP), i.e. more “U” shaped sections
– Shortening waterline length
– Increasing L/H ratio (reducing draft)
– Increasing CB
– Increasing sectional coefficient (CX), i.e., using harder bilge midships
– Moving LCB aft. (improves forward turning only when heeled and angled relative to the flow)
See here:
http://www.qcckayaks.com/resources/controllability.asp
Since we are never going to be able to do controlled measurements on all these factors, much less agree on how to balance them even assuming we could measure them, the best we are ever going to have for “overall” boat comparisons are anecdotal and subjective impressions by people who paddle the boats and perhaps measure a few things such as speed.
So, if after paddling boats A and B, I think one turns or tracks better than the other, then it does … in my mind, for me.
That SRT
is sure pretty… but my shoulders are wider than the boat! I’ll stick to the Supernova…built for the big guys.
Just to reduce it to absurdity,
comparing a Dagger Ocoee with a Bell Magic would be trivially easy. And I put a little more trust in the judgement of competent paddlers than you do. Probably the collective impression of several such paddlers could differentiate tracking ability for fairly similar boats.
Sorry, my writing was clearly opaque
The penultimate paragraph of my previous post was intended to posit that the subjective judgments of experienced paddlers ARE the best data we can get for “overall” comparisons among boats.
The technical-specs approach of saying one boat has a block larger block coefficient than another is largely unintelligible and too narrow. The technical things are too numerous, too hard too measure, and too hard to balance.
Hence, I’d RATHER hear the subjective judgments of experienced paddlers.
My ultimate paragraph was simply meant to say that I will ultimately trust my own subjective judgments the most … for me.
big guy boat
this is a great deal of info. I just recently started thinking about a solo canoe so this provides some good detail. I’m 6’4 and 300+lbs. I’m looking for a boat that is stable for running rivers, lakes, and an occasional class II rapid. I apologize for not being familiar with the lingo on these, but I think I want one that you sit down in a bit more.
Any recommendations?
new thread
How about starting a new thread with this question?
If you want a boat for both flatwater and Class II whitewater, you will have to compromise performance on one or the other.
Twice…
Yes, because we can’t just go to the local walmart and buy whatever used boat we want, and we may not be able to test paddle it.
I found a used black gold wildfire…a rare find…it was located on the other side of the country.
I had a friend who was going that way pick it up for me.
I was sure I was going to like it but I didn’t.
No biggie…I just re-sold it. It was used adn I got my money back out of it.
When it comes to buying used boats you have to wait until they come available, can’t control where they pop up, and if it is a good deal you need to jump on it or someone else will.
so yes…I paddled it twice adn that was enough for me to tell that I definitely did not like it.
Very few boats that I end up making a decision on so quickly.
I think part of the reason I did not like it is because I really thought it would handle more like the royalex one I had put the longer thwarts in (royalex was a YS solo with less rocker in the stern than the symmetrical wildfire).
However, my modified YS solo handled much better for me as did the Osprey. So…did not keep the Wildfire.
Quick and easy decision and got one boat out of the garage.
Matt
Flatwater to Cl II with no compromise
– Last Updated: Jul-21-10 8:30 PM EST –
The Swift Osprey is my go to boat for mixing those up. Rumor has it that the Swift Shearwater would be good for big guy's.
Based on a very little experience and hearsay I believe the Bell Wildfire and Rockstar would make good candidates as well.
Edit bub bub bub I meant to say the Bell Yellowstone and Rockstar Royalex hulls. But as Turtle points out the Wildfire and Starfire are very good composite boats that will easily do Flats to Class II. At 180 lbs I'm quite happy in a Wildfire and I like the Starfire too. The Star will certainly carry 300 lbs and camping gear.
Rockstar YES, Wildfire no. Wildfire
is a bit small even for me at 225#. For him it is out of the question.
Shearwater or Rockstar for botrod
I don’t care what the designer may say, but I think the max weight for true Spindarella performance in a Wildfire is about 165 and for a Flashfire about 135.
DY needs to design the Bubbafire for Colden or someone.
Additional lenght not additional beam!
At 140lbs (ish) and 6’ tall… I found the Flashfire more than enough canoe for me: works well for me with an additional 70-100lbs on board as well. That seems to equate to 2.5" waterline unladen and just over the 3" waterline with dog, daughter and a bit of daytripping junk aboard.
I’d plug the Wildfire about 1/2" less whether unladen or laden… which sounds good in principle, but I found the Wildfire to be more boat than I really wanted: I was happy kneeling in a Rapidfire… and by comparison, a Wildfire seemed like a barge. I’m not an extreme case either: bigger folk than me (including some serious accomplished freestyle practitioners) prefer the Flashfire to the Wildfire!
Seems to me that rather than DY designing an upscaled (even beamier) Wildfire, he needs to stretch the Flashfire to 14’ and 15’, and to offer a 15’ Wildfire: keeping the hulls from plugging so far through adding waterline length to hulls in which the beam already allows for the knee-spread of even seriously tall folk.
Ultimately, though, I’d suggest that the gap in the market is at the other end: the Flashfire is HUGE for smaller paddlers… and if you are sub 5’4" tall and sub 120lbs (surely not uncommon for those who ain’t adult males)… the Flashfire AND PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ELSE GOOD may be too much hull.
Big folk are well caterered for: it’s the littlies than ain’t!
Starfire
Colden has the molds for the Starfire(15’) also. Paul has not layed one up,but they are in the works. This iS the boat that Jeff Liebel(a big man) uses in his beautiful freestyle performance duet with his wife Laura.
TURTLE
I wonder
what proportion of the population is so small? Surely in America, that is an awful small segment of the market, hence the lack of a dedicated mass produced product. As an aside, I have been interested in buying a canoe livery for some time. For that reason, I tend to notice the rental patrons I pass on the river. America is a large-bodied population, getting larger all the time. Maybe there’s a market niche for a small-person boat. Not around here.
P.S. I enjoy reading your reviews.
a little hipper
… the kayakers are recruiting 99% of the kids. How 'bout re-badging it “Pfatfire”?
Size Curves
– Last Updated: Jul-22-10 9:51 AM EST –
We should have a hot hull for 120 lb folk. Curtis had one, sold 20 hulls in eight years, which never paid for the mold. Best bet for the few remaining petite; Placid's SpitFire, specially reinforced for a kneeling seat or ORC's Bell DragonFly if they'll put in the extra belly bands.
Beyond that, we have super sized our nation to the point few solo hulls are available for the larger among us.
Wenonah has the 31" Wilderness, strangely w/o rocker, Bell has the 31" RockStar with differential rocker and Nova's Super Nova at 32" has heroic and symmetrical rocker. All three are 15 feet long.
We need more and better boats for the larger amongst us. But they can't get much longer than 15 feet because larger folks are usually limited in torso rotation, so we need to limit the surface area and drag of their hulls.
That said, I do not under stand how Matt finds the WildFire too narrow. I'm formerly 5'10", now reduced to 5'9" and short legged, and I rattle around in WildFire like seeds in a gourd. The boat is too wide for me to triangulate my knees and bottom into a firm fit. If Matt did his WF time in a YS Solo with seat dropped for sitting, it would be tight to kneel in.