Personal choice … strong opinions …
Depends on how confident you are in the security of the whole system. I might be more concerned with one of those after-market strap on systems that use rain gutters or door frames, vs. a solid factory installed system.
Cradles front and back vs. glide pads in the back seem more stable.
I have used a Volvo sedan, Saab sedan, and a Grand Cherokee. The Volvo and Saab had factory racks (Thule) that could be removed. They had feet that fit into groves in the roof, and bolts to lock them in place. The Jeep has factory installed system that I attach Thule bars to.
I have enough strap to wrap the boat tightly not only to the cradles and bars, but also to wrap the bars to the rails, which are factory installed.
I’m comfortable with that, at speeds up to 65 or so. It would take a lot of torque to rip the rails out of the roof. But I do keep an eye on the bow of the boat while driving to see if it’s moving around (it does not), and inspect the rails and roof for any signs of stress.
On the 2 sedans, where the distance between the bars was not too far apart, and there was a lot of boar hanging off the front and back, I was more concerned that the stress from a pot hole could cause stress fractures in the glass.
The essential question
Why would you not use bow and stern tie downs? They are simple and easy to deploy. They have no important negative consequences that I can think of. Lazy? Cheapskate? Come on. You are making a bet. What is the likelihood that my rig will fly off, ripping holes in the top of my vehicle, killing or injuring someone, trashing my boat(s) and costing me a lot of money? Well maybe you can slide by. But how will you feel if any of the above consequences happen and all you had to have done was the simple, painless procedure of just attaching bow and tie downs?
Dr_Disco
You say,
“I know persons it has happened to.”
“Think about the possible danger to other persons.”
Granted, this is a pet peeve and bug-a-boo of mine, but is there any scenario in which you would not use “persons” instead of people. To me, people would sound so much better. I’m just wondering what is gained by “persons” and if there is any context in which you would not use it.
End of rant.
for a pictorial example
for a pictorial example on how to tie down the bow on a car that seems to have no anchor points up front and where paint damage could be a possibility check this link: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/2009/12/diy-tie-down-anchors-for-modern-cars.html
Article in Sea Kayaker
There was an account in the April or May issue of Sea Kayaker magazine from a guy who had used only belly bands for years without incident and therefore felt safe with them. Then, the force of the air took off the rack with the boat. He felt fortunate he just lost an expensive boat and no one was hurt. It was an expensive way to be educated, but not the worst.
Airborne
Do you like to fly the friendly skies of kayak airline. So what if you learn by killing a few people. Heck it is just a bad day for them. It could be worse. You could scratch your Beamer. I had a Yakima tower disintegrate. I had two kayaks tied down front and back. The tie downs kept them on the car. I could have lost them on the beltway or Chesapeake bridge. I proudly display my scratches now. Do not forget the red flag tied to the end if it hangs off the back.
JimZ
I use bow and stern tie downs
at all times. I also put on some Scotchgard™ Paint Protection Film by 3m to protect my paint. I don’t care what others say I like to be safe rather than sorry.
If there’s any place to attach,
forget about keeping the car looking perfect. Keeping yourself free of blame for injury or damage to others takes precedence. You can prevent direct abrasion by applying some 3M ClearGuard to the contact areas. I did this with my truck’s front end where the rope contacted various places on its way to the tow hook.
This is an advantage of trailering. Somehow I think a BMW owner ain’t gonna tow anything.
Then for your "essential answer"
shouldn’t you be even safer and put a net over the whole thing and then chain it to your undercarriage ?
Jack L
.
Do this of you’re really worried about it. Get a roll of duct tape from your local hardware store, tear a piece off and stick 4 or 5 inches on the boat and then stick the other end of the tape to the front bumper. Plenty strong and it wont harm the paint at all. When I haul canoes I usually dont even have straps, I just use 2 pieces of duct tape about 4 feet long. Boats are strong anyways, they’re made for smashing into rocks so flying off the roof and landing on flat pavement aint gonna hurt it any.
Bottom line
It is just iresponsible not to use bow and stern lines. I don`t care how well you think your rack is attached to your car. Hell, it only takes a minute to put them on.
JackL’s “experience” vs wisdom
…“experience” tells him he doesn’t need tie downs because he never lost a boat. “Wisdom” should tell you (and JackL) to use the tie downs because others have lost their boats and/or racks and caused damage, injury or worse.
another solution
drive 45
Experience with saddles
We found that our long boats tended to move around more after being buffeted by wind at highway speeds than with our original stackers to which we have returned. The value of a front tie down is that, at least for a longer boat, you can see that things are moving around before it gets to a critical point. You can hook it to bumpers for the front hood - it doesn't have to go under the bumper and it may be safer anyway. At that length the line isn't as likely to get caught in the wheel if it comes loose.
We tend to only use stern tie downs for the canoe. You can always run extra straps or ropes creatively if you are unsure of your security in the rear. There is less early feedback on what is going on back there usually, unless you are driving a truck. It's most likely you'll see a problem in its early stages from the front.
Most states require that a red flag be on the rear of anything that overhangs the end of your vehicle by 3 feet or more. Even if your state doesn't require it, this is a prudent measure so that you can see where your boat ends when it comes to things like backing into a parking space. If you are traveling, the boat will usually be safe overhanging a patch of grass than stuck out into the travel lane at a rest stop.
always?
I agree that on a 24" rack spread, at highway speeds, I would use bow and stern tie-downs. (The webbing loops under the hood and trunk are a nice solution.)
However, blanket statements like “it’s irresponsible not to use bow and stern lines” seem a little broad to me. Is everyone who uses a trailer with 6-foot bar spread irresponsible? Is it murderous of me not to use bow and stern lines with a 1000-pound rated truck rack with 6 foot bar spread?
Honest ta goodness tru tale…
No kiddin'. Really happened! No BS~!
One day awhile back waan ah' wuz woykin' de paddlin' department at de "Outdoor" store waar ah' woyks part time at durin' de paddlin' season, ah' had dis here customer come in wantin' ta buy a 'yak an' after a couple hours o' tryin' ta haggle me down on a $200 tupperware boat (said she cood git it cheaper on de Internet - so ah' told her "Well fer dat price pick me up one too". She quickly changed de subject) an' iffin' ah'd throw in a pfd or a paddle fer nuttin' - yo, right heaaa.
Anywho, she finally made up her noggin' ta git de boat, ah' done de paperwoyk an' then of course asked her how she be a'plannin' on gittin' it home. So, she says she wants me ta put it on her car which wuz a small import or somethang like dat... no racks, nuttin'! But it did have a sunroof! Oh, great!
So, ah' asks her if she would like ta buy a rack or at least foam blocks. "No" she says wit annoyance. "I've spent enough money". "Just put it on top of the car and by the way, do you have some masking tape to attach it to my car?".
Now pilgrims, ah' gave her dat look o' "Yer gots ta be funnin' me, right?", but she wuz serious. After ah' tried ta git her mind right about wat she wuz figgerin' ta do, she looks at me wit a snarl an' then insistently an' quite rudely says "Well, use some duct tape then? You're just trying to get me to spend more money."
"No, ah's jus' tryin' ta save de lives o' de people in de cars dats be a'drivin' behind yer waan yer pull out onta Rt. 17".
Ah' then took de paperwoyk an' tore it up right in front o' her face."
She stormed out, but came back de next day wit her friend an' a pickup, paid fer de 'yak an' left wit her new $200 boat (an' not fro' de Internet an' no freebie paddle).
Takes all kinds. Honest tale.
By de way, ah' gots commoycial TracRacs attached ta welded rain gutters on me Jeep Cherokee (de whole roof has ta purdy much git torn off before dem racks would fail), heavy duty 1 1/2" NRS straps an'/or 1/2" rope but... ah' still use bow an' stern tiedowns religoosly no matter how far or how fast or slow ah' go - an' ah' trust dem racks an' straps/rope/knots - "BUT YER NEVER KNOW!" Only takes a'nudder minute or two.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2154224040094647494OGklSF
Ah's fixed 'nuff boats o' folks dat trusted their racks an' tiedowns an' then gone went an' fell off o' dems cars (racks an' all) - none o' dem mine!
Fat Elmo
You do have tow points
You may need to install them though! Many cars have a screw-in eyebolt that goes through a concealed opening in your bumpers. These eyebolts may be in your trunk near your jack or spare tire -
There are short straps made specifically to attach a tie down to them, that install under your engine/trunk lits to an existing bolt on the sheet metal. Not sure if you got a good one there or not on that car.
I’ve been using rope as tie downs on both my cars for several years and I see no wear on the pain of my front bumper where they touch. If worried, perhaps stick a sheet of clear 3M adhesive sheeting on the bumper to protect it. A 12 footer will have the ropes a little at an angle so you might get more rubbing compared to what I get on a 14-18 footer on a car that’s a couple of feet shorter than yours…
If I listened to all the so called
"wisedom" from all the “experts” on P-net I would be petrified to be paddling all these years
You don’t have a clue as to how my boats or racks are secured and if you would have used some “wisdom” and read all of my post above, you might have kept your “wisdom” to yourself.
jack L
“People” was originally a singular
collective noun, while “persons” was a plural noun. So originally when you were talking about “the people” as a body (“the people want bread and circuses”) that was correct, but if you saw three individuals down the street, you would say “those three persons”. Of course, since English is an informal living language, as opposed to French, which is governed by the Academie Francais, over time, broad change in usage itself determines what is “correct.” Sometimes, something that is technically “most correct” sounds awkward, and so it is best to go with what sounds better. As Winston Churchill said after having his use of a preposition at the end of a sentence: “this is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I shall not put.”
I was going to mention the trailers Nate
like all of the zillion ones who do shuttles, and guided trips, but that is too much for the “dooms day” posters to grasp.
I am sure some do, but I have never seen any that do, and I was at a place once where the guides had just finished tying down a half dozen yaks on a trailer. One of the paddlers who had a high end composite boat started to put end tie downs on his boat and the lead guide told him that if he continued he would not be responsible for the boat.
Jack L