You asked: "Are there boats that you would use for a two week river trip where half the trip is going to involve running class two and three rapids all day long. Need to carry two weeks of gear."
The Liquidlogic Remix XP10 (and 9) are designed for kayak self-support river trips (large capacity for storage -- for a WW boat -- rear bulkhead and hatch, and deck rigging), and also for the flatwater sections bewteen rapids (skeg); with a whitewater type hull design.
The trade off is that it won't be an ideal lake boat -- even though it has a skeg, the hull shape doesn't cut through (no V in bow) -- depends what you are looking for -- has to be some trade off.
Avocet I’ve got a plastic Avocet(16’), which is much easier to turn than a shorter Tsunami. So yes, there are maneuverable sea kayaks. A couple have been mentioned.
The problem with using them in Class III is the risk of pinning – they’re not designed for those kind of loads.
+1 on Prijon Yukon Expedition If your primary usage is river tripping in class 2-3 for up to two weeks, then you should look for a kayak that is designed for that sort of thing:
Great suggestions. Not sure I know yet what I want. I'm going to keep paddling this Tsunami, get smaller, get better at paddling a kayak, and then make a change of some kind down the road. But I think a more maneuverable sea kayak - for day trips and weekends might be the idea for me. I'll probably stick to open boats for long trips the more I think about it. This is the sort of thing that I'd like to be able to do in my kayak - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTp4TqqqHIA.
And just now I came upon this which is making me think even more that right now I may be paddling a sea kayak on the go straight end of the spectrum and that there are sea kayaks out there that will hit the nail on the head for me - http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=2209.
If you wish to paddle against the flow of the river, as in this video, then a sea kayak can be effective. If you want to run the river and play, then a ww boat designed to do so is better suited.
BTW, the boat in the video and reviewed is a descendant of the Meridian which was greatly influenced by the Romany. These day/play boats (along with Avocet, Chatham 16, etc...)are well suited to moving and bumpy water.
Zephyr 15.5 If that person is doing it in a Zephyr 15.5 then there’s your answer. The thing that you have to realize is that experience and skills come first. I believe that kayaker could do the same stuff in just about anything although he may have his favorite boats.
I remember quite a few years back a white water river race on the Collinsville river in CT - class 2 and three several mile race. A guy arrived in a Nordcapp and won. Excellent paddler just flew across everything in his path with total abandon.
I agree. I am in a weird situation in that regard. I do this sort of thing all the time in a 16 foot tripping boat with a fair amount of rocker - and I pole up stream with a larger less rockered tripping boat. I have a pretty good feel for the water. But I am totally new to kayaks. I have taken my Tsunami upstream in this fashion in slight less powerful water and that is what got me thinking about these issues - I began to wonder if there might be boats with more slightly more rocker or maneuverability for this sort of thing. So while I am new to Kayaks I hope and expect that my paddling experience will get me up to this sort of level fairly quickly. I find that most of the time I am fine but every now and then something happens that takes me a little by surprise. So I do have some learning to do for sure. And, I need to get my roll down better.
I do run downstream a lot but "playing" is not that important to me - more of an occasional surf on a wave sort of thing. In my soul I am a tripper. Plus, these videos I am seeing of sea kayaks in rough water and on rivers and waves would satisfy any desire to "play" that I might have.
The more I think about it the more I think that this is exactly the type of boat that I would enjoy the most. Leave the kayaks at home on the long trips - but throw a nice day tripper kayak or weekend boat on the car for local paddling and short trips.
I think what is happening to me is that after a few short weeks of paddling I am beginning to realize that indeed my skills are transferring quickly.
P&H Delphin A whitewater sea kayak. Contrary terms but makes for happy whitewater paddlers playing surf zones on the ocean. Shorter and you’re moving into Pyrahna Fusion territory.
Sure, my average over 10-15 milers in the 13.6 foot Perception Sonoma was consistently b/w 4.5 and 4.7 mph on flat water. But that’s slow if you want to go fast - While she was a pleasure to paddle at up to 4.5mph it was a near death experience for me to maintain 5mph over more than 5 miles -;( Same with the Zephyr, by the way. The 10-12 footers that are more WW oriented are really pigs in flat water, IMO, if one wants to cover some mileage; perfectly fine if not…
... yours tuly. You should have seen me a few year of years ago trying much easier rapids for a first time -;( It took some perseverance to get to be completely comfortable in class 2 and easy 3 for me in the Z. Byt the way, now that I look at my own video, I see so many little mistakes that I think I should make a new one -;). They don't matter in this relatively easy water with little consequence if a particular maneuver fails, but can be important in a more technical situation.
Still, I would not take a sea kayak there if there were dangerous pinning situations along the way. Where I paddle the river may be swift but I would have to work hard to get myself pinned in most places and there are really only a couple of spots where it needs attention for this specific problem (which is very real!)
Traditionally that role was filled by the Pintail. And after that the Romany. For those paddlers I know who are primarily ww, the Pintail and Romany are the sea kayaks that make them smile.
The original Necky Elaho (15'10", skegged, etc...) was the first real playboat sea kayak I saw from an American manufacturer. Very rockered, Bombergear ww backband, and aggressive thigh braces. A very fun boat. That original version was apparently too much of a niche boat and was quickly replaced by a longer, ruddered, and less rockerd version. I'm glad to still have my original model Elaho.
The Alchemy and Delphin are the newer trend of shorter playful boats with high and defined stability but still wholly capable of seafaring.
tsunami The Tsunamis are good transitional sea kayaks, but the main disadvantage (compared to typical sea kayaks) is that they are a bit less responsive to edging and turning strokes because they have a fairly substantial skeg trailing out under the stern. Many british style sea kayaks will maneuver across eddy lines a little more predictably.
Some sea kayaks like the Delphin are really excellent for paddling in fast currents. Others, like a Romany, Avocet, Tempest 165, are reasonably maneuverable and good all-around boats if you plan to do some current.
Second Avocet (plastic) My coach back in California actually won a down river race in his plastic Avocet!
As he recounted the event, when he showed up with the 16’ long kayak, all the other paddlers looked at him like he’s from Mars! Well, they still thought he was a Marsian as he won the race. :o)
But it might be a little on the small side for the OP…
Yep I’m guessing the Avocet is probably optimal at 150-160 lb.
At 120, I found it too much boat. Once loaded with camping gear, it felt much better.
I suspect it’ll do normally up to about 180’ish. Beyond that, it’s a “play boat” for the heavier paddlers. I doubt the OP want it for that.
Someone mentioned its bigger sister the Pintail. I’m told it has even more rocker than the Avocet. So you’ll have to work a bit harder to keep it going straight. Check that out to see for yourself.
While she was a pleasure to paddle at up to 4.5mph it was a near death experience for me to maintain 5mph over more than 5 miles -;( Same with the Zephyr, by the way. The 10-12 footers that are more WW oriented are really pigs in flat water, IMO, if one wants to cover some mileage; perfectly fine if not…