Move the seat back to, “With the first adjustment, the directional stability seemed to get better, somewhat.”
When the boat veered off course what was the wind and wave direction in relation to the boat.?
@David R said:
The only thing the skeg seems to do is make it that much harder to steer back ON course, from what I can see.
The skeg’s job is to force the kayak more downwind. It is not there to make the kayak keep its direction better in all wind directions.
If you felt the skeg working against you when you were trying to force the kayak upwind, the skeg behaved just as it should.
Also, it is not clear to me whether your kayak went more downwind or more upwind than you wanted. I understand from your comment that you were not paddling straight into the wind (“headwind at times”) but rather into’ish the wind. This is in line with nickrowhurst’s suggestions earlier in this thread. However, when you do that experiment, you can’t just focus on whether you are keeping your course or not. You have to consider if your kayak seeks into the wind or away from the wind when it deviates from your intended course. It is quite possible that you started with a seat position where the kayak would seek too much away from the wind, then found a seat position where it was generally neutral and then continued the adjustment in the same direction until the kayak would seek too much into the wind.
Am curious how far the skeg was deployed. Fully? Half? Quarter?
You know too that, like sailing, sometimes your heading is different than your course. Sometimes sneaking up on a point is easier than a direct straight course. You can fight waves and wind or you can “tack” and sneak up on the intended destination.
For example my Cheasapeake 17 loves to go into the wind and wave from dead on to a 45 degree. It too will go down wind real good with some surfing, depending upon load. So I can fight a beam on wind and wave or do a 45 degree off the wind until I get high on the destination then turn the boat to a down wind.
Wind and waves are not constant in velocity or size or direction. It is possible that at times your boat was hit with a combination of forces that turned the boat when other times it was stable on course. Every boat has a personality.
My first priority would be to position the seat where it would allow easy ingress and egress to the boat in the fashion I am used to. Then I would adjust the seat for trim as long as it didn’t interfere with ease of getting in and out of the boat. As for the boat not tracking, get used to using the skeg to some degree–even when going to windward if needed. There will be times when you will also need to edge and paddle shift and maybe even use less than a symmetric stroke. All of that will be automatic in time.
What direction was the wind coming from? That will push the stern around, which of course also reorients the bow. More skeg means it will react less to the wind, though every model is individual on the details of how much.
This may sound stupid but I’ll say it anyway just in case. Thermoform kayaks can warp if stored outside in direct sunlight. Have you checked to make sure your hull is straight? This could be an issue.
Okay, let’s go through these sequentially. BTW, thanks for the replies.
DrowningDave: The kayak is about a week old and has never been stored outside at all. So I’m thinking warpage isn’t an issue.
Celia: The wind, when there was some, was coming more or less toward me from the front while I was doing the steps Nickcrowhurst listed. I noticed the inability to keep the kayak on course both in that situation, during/after my adjustments, and also when I was paddling back upriver, when the wind would’ve been at my back. It was a very slight breeze, FWIW. And the river has basically no discernible current where I paddle.
magooch: I’ve been paddling for about four years now, quite a lot. So I’m familiar with the requirement to asymmetrically paddle at times. I was using the skeg off and on during this afternoon’s paddle, mostly fully deployed when down, but toward the end I started experimenting with just partially. I can’t say I noticed a lot of difference in how the boat stayed tracking straight. As I mentioned, it DID create a lot of resistance when I tried to edge the boat back on course, however.
Overstreet: I’m not familiar with anything about sailing, but your statements make sense. My only question would be, why would I not experience these things when I paddled my 12-ft Pungo? It seems to me (and I could be totally wrong here) that a wider, more piggish boat would be pushed around MORE by the conditions you mentioned, no? I thought half the point of a sea kayak’s hull design was its ability to track straight?
Allan Olesen: Your statements confuse me the most, mostly because I don’t understand the terms “downwind” and “upwind” in this context. I don’t know what you mean when you say “the kayak pushed upwind”. I tend to categorize wind as “in my face” or some direction similar to that, or “coming across my boat” from one side of the other, or “a tailwind”. I suppose I’d better do some googling if these terms are important when discussing paddling.
Several of you asked questions pertaining to the exact wind direction and even wave directions, and I honestly don’t know how I’d even determine that without a windsock I could stare at. I’m paddling on/around Lake Erie and the wind and waves (waves, especially) are all OVER the place. And even when the wind is constant, knowing if it’s perfectly aligned with my direction is something I’m unable to determine accurately at this stage, I’m afraid.
“Piggish boat” vs Performance boat…? If the new boat is lighter, faster and more nimble maybe you have to act sooner to change than react on a piggish boat .
“Seakayak” does not mean the same thing in every boat. Generally they have floatation chambers fore and aft. But Greenland skin on frame don’t. Touring boats generally have less rocker and go straighter, but not necessarily. A Valley Etain is a touring boat but has more rocker than my C-17. It behaves differently. Banana boats (lots of rocker) are made for waves and turns. they’re all seakayaks.
To help some with the wind questions - most sea kayaks are designed to respond to wind by the stern being pushed and the bow going into the wind. A skeg or a rudder can counter balance this tendency to varying degrees depending on the boat, but that is the default for pretty all the kayak designs out there. That is because bow into the wind, if the paddler is having trouble controlling the boat, is considered to be a safer way for the boat to go off a straight course than the other way around.
So if you are going off course to the right as you paddle and the boat is otherwise being paddled straight, the wind is coming from your left to some degree and shoving your stern left. It doesn’t have to be straight left, it can be at an angle, say quartering.
This help?
@“David R”
There’s a vast difference between a 12’, 29" wide rec kayak and a 16.5’, 22" skegged sea kayak which has hard chines and some rocker. You’ve had your Fathom only a week; even if you’ve paddled it four hours a day, that’s still not a lot of seat time to get to know a new and completely different boat than what you’ve been paddling.
Here’s information on using a skeg which might be helpful:
http://solentseakayaking.co.uk/techniques/other/technique-using-a-skeg/
All boats are different so it will take some experimentation with skeg position in different conditions, but once you get that dialed in, tracking shouldn’t be an issue. Only time you want it fully down is with the wind behind you. You can use a stern rudder to steer, changing blade position as needed.
Wind direction and speed are important to know, especially on the Great Lakes. If the wind is forecast to increase to 15 kts with gusts of 25 kts at (i.e.) 2:00 p.m., you want to know that if you’re going out in the morning so you can plan accordingly.
Windy (Windows, iOS, Android) is pretty accurate. https://www.windy.com/?41.548,-82.167,9 (the link shows Lake Erie)
@David R said:
Allan Olesen: Your statements confuse me the most, mostly because I don’t understand the terms “downwind” and “upwind” in this context. I don’t know what you mean when you say “the kayak pushed upwind”. I tend to categorize wind as “in my face” or some direction similar to that, or “coming across my boat” from one side of the other, or “a tailwind”. I suppose I’d better do some googling if these terms are important when discussing paddling.
Travelling upwind = Travelling against the direction the wind is coming from. (Wind in your face)
Travelling downwind = Travelling away from the direction the wind is coming from. (Tailwind)
Anyway, from this I get the feeling that you probably haven’t understood the purpose of the seat experiment. And you need to understand its purpose to get the intended benefit from it. So I will try to explain more thoroughly:
How a weathercock works
I assume you are familiar with the concept of a weathercock or weather vane. Otherwise look here or here.
A weathercock works like this: The weathercock is hinged slightly in front of the centre of the wind forces hitting it. So wind coming from the side will push the rear end more than it will push the front end. And consequently, the weathercock will always be turned around so it faces against the direction the wind is coming from.
If you wanted the weathercock to face away from the direction is coming from, you would hinge it more toward the rear.
And if you wanted the weathercock to be neutral to wind (which would defeat the purpose of having a weathercock), you would hinge it exactly at the centre of the wind forces. The closer the hinge point gets to the centre of the wind forces, the less the weathercock will be turned by the wind.
Thinking of a kayak as a weathercock
The above is exactly what happens with the kayak too (at least on flat water), with one exception: The kayak does not have a hinge. But the kayak is making sideways resistance in the water when wind coming from the side tries to push it, and the position of this resistance will decide the position of the “hinge point”:
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If the kayak makes a lot of sideways resistance at the front end and no water resistance at the rear end, it will behave as if it was hinged at the front end. And just like the weathercock, it will try to turn around so you face against the direction the wind is coming from.
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If the kayak makes a lot of sideways resistance at the rear end and no water resistance at the front end, it will behave as if it was hinged at the rear end and try to turn around so you face away from the direction the wind is coming from.
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If the kayak makes equal sideways resistance at the rear end and the front end, it will behave as if it was hinged at the centre, and it will be neutral to wind.
So when we are in a sea kayak and want to use the wind to our advantage, we want to “move the hinge point” so it suits the direction we want to travel in.
Using the skeg
One of the ways to move the hinge point is by deploying the skeg. When you paddle a kayak forward on flat water, with the wind coming from the side, a skeg equipped kayak will behave like this if the kayak is properly balanced for skeg use:
- If the skeg is up, the kayak will be hinged slightly toward the front. The faster you paddle forward, the more it will be hinged at the front. Consequently the kayak will try to turn around so you get the wind in your face.
- When you fully deploy the skeg, you create a lot of additional sideways water resistance at the rear end. So the hinge point moves far toward the back at the kayak. Consequently, the kayak will try to turn around so you get the wind in your back.
- With just the right amount of skeg, you balance your hinge point so it is at the centre of the wind forces, and your kayak will behave neutrally without trying to turn to either side.
This skeg adjustment is not something you just do once. The balance changes all the time during a trip, depending on speed and wind direction, and you have to adjust the skeg to compensate.
When the skeg isn’t enough, look at weight distribution
Sometimes you will find that the adjustment range of the skeg does not fit all situations. Perhaps your kayak will try to turn upwind even though your skeg is all the way down. Or it will try to turn downwind even though your skeg is all the way up.
In these situation you will need to look at your weight distribution in the kayak:
- If you have a lot of weight in the front, the front of the kayak will be deeper in the water, creating more sideways resistance at the front. So the hinge point will be toward the front.
- If you have a lot of weight in the rear, the rear of the kayak will be deeper in the water, creating more sideways resistance at the rear. So the hinge point will be toward the rear.
This was the purpose of the seat exercise. When you move the seat forward, you move your own weight forward, and the hinge point will move forward too, causing the kayak to go more up against the wind.
With this knowledge, you should read nickrowhurst’s suggestions again and try to understand what he wanted you to achieve with the experiment. And you will see that it crucial to the result that whenever the kayak is turning away from the direction you want it to travel in, you ask yourself this: “Is the kayak right now trying to turn up against the wind, or is it trying to turn away from the wind.”
I did not address these two points in my previous reply. But they are important too:
@David R said:
Celia: The wind, when there was some, was coming more or less toward me from the front while I was doing the steps Nickcrowhurst listed.
I know that Nickrowhurst wanted you to travel exactly against the wind. But I think you should start with a more basic situation:
- Find a place with some wind (preferably 10 knots or more, depending on your abilities) and no waves.
- With the skeg fully up, paddle with the wind coming from the side while you focus on paddling symmetrically, doing absolutely nothing to keep your direction. Will the kayak now try to turn into the direction the wind is coming from or away from the direction the wind is coming from? Hopefully, it will turn into the wind.
- Now repeat the same with the skeg fully down. Hopefully, the kayak will do the opposite of before: It will turn away from the wind.
- Finally, try to find a skeg position where the kayak does not want to turn to either side.
In this experiment, if you find that the kayak wants to turn to the same side all the time, no matter if the skeg is up or down, then you should try to move your seat forward or backward. Seat more forward = more able to turn into the wind. Seat more backward = more able to turn away from the wind.
When you have this in place, and you can make your kayak go left or right in sidewind just by adjusting the skeg, you can go on to the experiments Nickrowhurst suggested.
Several of you asked questions pertaining to the exact wind direction and even wave directions, and I honestly don’t know how I’d even determine that without a windsock I could stare at. I’m paddling on/around Lake Erie and the wind and waves (waves, especially) are all OVER the place. And even when the wind is constant, knowing if it’s perfectly aligned with my direction is something I’m unable to determine accurately at this stage, I’m afraid.
Yes, that is actually harder than one would think. It took me some time to learn to feel the wind direction. The best trick I have found is turning my head from side to side while listening to the wind blowing past my ears. When I get the wind exactly from the front or rear, the sound of the wind will change.
That’s a superb explanation by Alan.
Nick.
Alan’s explanation is great. My only quibble is the suggestion that the skeg when all the way down should fully hold the stern against being pushed around, so that the bow is the only end being pushed off of a straight course, Once it gets to a reasonable afternoon offshore wind speed, that is not the effect of the skeg in either of the primary boats I paddle, nor was it in my husband’s first sea kayak. The skeg helps more in one boat than the other, but there is still some edging and corrective paddling involved. In my experience what you can count on is the skeg mitigating the problem, but when the wind gets up to 15 knots or so it’ll be mitigation rather than a full course correction. I am also a lighter weight person, so this could have an effect. I should add that the cockpit itself is way back in one boat and the seat is as far back as it’ll go in the other. So it is not my setup.
Wow, Alan. You’ve got a real gift for teaching. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. The "hinge’ concept clears things up perfectly. If there’s any way to “pin” these types of explanations someplace on this forum for others to benefit from it, I’d strongly suggest doing so.
I hope everyone participating in this discussion realizes that my goal here is to learn as much as possible, not be argumentative. I know sometimes I come off as arguing, but I’m really just trying to clarify my own perception of the situation to you guys, so you can tailor your answers more specifically toward what I’m not understanding. If that makes any sense.
Sea kayaking is complicated…
@“David R” I agree that Allan’s description was excellent.
For a further understanding, compare what he said to sailboat design. Sailors talk about “Weather Helm” and “Lee Helm”, which are analogous to what kayakers refer to a weather cocking and lee cocking. For sailboats it’s a significant safety feature as if a sailor becomes incapacitated, he/she would generally want the boat to head up into the wind and slow down rather than running before it.
Sailors refer to the CE (Center of Effort) of the boat, which can vary depending on the sails used, and the CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance) of the boat. When the CE and CLR line up you have a perfectly balanced boat, but that could really only occur in a static environment which sailing, and kayaking, never occurs.
If this piques your interest read…
http://www.schoolofsailing.net/weather-helm-and-lee-helm.html
I also find that the faster you go the better the skeg or rudder work. If you’re just gong for a slow birdwatching paddle it doesn’t do much.
@Celia said:
Allan’s explanation is great. My only quibble is the suggestion that the skeg when all the way down should fully hold the stern against being pushed around, so that the bow is the only end being pushed off of a straight course, Once it gets to a reasonable afternoon offshore wind speed, that is not the effect of the skeg in either of the primary boats I paddle, nor was it in my husband’s first sea kayak. The skeg helps more in one boat than the other, but there is still some edging and corrective paddling involved. In my experience what you can count on is the skeg mitigating the problem, but when the wind gets up to 15 knots or so it’ll be mitigation rather than a full course correction.
Thank you to both of you for the kind words.
I also have one kayak which I cannot always balance with the skeg alone when the kayak is not loaded. In that kayak I always put a bag with 3 litres of water behind the skeg box. The changed weight distribution is enough to make the skeg work in any situation, and it is still not too much: With the skeg fully up, the kayak will still turn into the wind when paddling forward, just as it should. I have paddled this kayak in 30 knot wind from all directions without any issue.
I will never accept a kayak which I can’t fully balance by its skeg in side wind. But of course this is just a personal opinion. I am an engineer, and having an adjustment option where the available adjustment range is offset from the needed adjustment range just seems wrong to me.
However, last year I joined a course held by Nigel Foster, and he expressed a somewhat different opinion: When paddling in side wind, we should try to compensate by paddling and edging, and only if that is not enough to keep the kayak from turning into the wind should we use the skeg.
@DrowningDave said:
I also find that the faster you go the better the skeg or rudder work.
Skegs and rudders are quite different in this situation.
A rudder needs speed in the water to work as intended. If the speed in the water is zero, there will be no force on the rudder from the oncoming water. (The rudder will of course still act as a fixed skeg and see some water force from the “skeg effect”, but that is another story.)
A skeg can do a lot, even when your speed in the water is zero. Even though the speed is zero, the wind will still try to push the kayak sideways, and the skeg will still change how the kayak reacts to that. But something else happens too: When the speed is low, the front of kayak will have less sideways resistance in the water. So the hinge point will move toward the rear of the kayak,and you will need less skeg than usual - or probably no skeg at all - to keep the balance between the front end and the rear end.