@Celia said:
In fact, you will fail a sea kayak assessment in the BCU/PNA in North America UNLESS you can manage your boat accurately in the defined test conditions without a skeg or rudder. Each test level adds more wind and more waves.
At what BCU level is that?
When I took my BCU 3 Star assessment at Seakayaking Cornwall, I was not asked to demonstrate that I could control the kayak without a skeg. I am signed up for BCU 4 Star (now called “BC Sea Kayak Leader”, but the old term won’t die) training this November and have read the syllabus and assessment notes and they don’t mention such a requirement either.
Anyway, it sounds like an good requirement. And I have done my part of paddling with defect/stuck skegs anyway, so it wouldn’t really be an obstacle for me. I have just never heard about such a requirement before.
I was required to pull up my skeg at at the last gasp of the old 3 star assessment in I think 2010, in Maine USA. My information was that was the norm in this region. And I was told in came straight from the UK side. I failed, lots of reasons, it was not my day. But if you were allowed to use your skeg or rudder in your 3 star, you got an easier day than I and my fellow paddler did.
That said, part of the reason I walked away from the BCU foolishness and ego was that there was way too much personality and too little clear consistent criteria. In fact it got worse the higher up the food chain it went. I have been much happier and and relaxed, and frankly had more success with solving my paddling issues as they come up since I walked away from them. I had a major health issue in the family so fell off of some of what I could do. I have gradually been rebuilding my skills, on my own clock.
Celia, your comment about the UK guys was spot-on. I was really impressed when I viewed a Youtube training video done by a Scottish instructor…he did the usual poolside instruction for the first half, then took his boat out into (what I would consider) serious waves off the coast of some craggy shoreline and demonstrated again there. You rarely see that with the American videos. As a motorcyclist, I learned a long time ago that when it comes to dealing with weather and conditions, people in the UK really know their stuff.
Note on skegs:
Some years ago I was doing a minor crossing and needed some skeg, but it was jammed by picking up beach debris from a sandy/fine gravel beach. Typically I check this, but in this case I had no way to deploy the skeg. I then noted that others might have a strong string dangling from the end of the skeg under the hull. This allows a paddling partner to come along side and reach down to tug on the string freeing the skeg. It’s still best to check as you leave the beach in case you have no partner or if tugging won’t free the skeg.
I currently have 2 kayaks - a Mariner Express which has neither skeg nor rudder (and truly needs neither) and an older NDK Explorer with a skeg. I haven’t used the skeg on the Explorer, but I have the skeg string.
rsevenic, I thought I’d share this…paddled with a very experienced guy a few weeks back and we discussed your suggestion. He said, “Yeah, I’ve been meaning to add that string, but never got around to it.” We stopped for lunch later on a gravely beach and when we got back into the boats, his skeg was stuck.
I went home that night and added the string to my skeg.
Getting back to the question of Eddyline stability.
Now that the ownership of Eddyline has changed hands, I hope the new owners will be open to revising their hull philosophy (very low bow and stern to avoid wind), especially on kayaks from the Journey on down. The reason given for that shape was that Eddylines are made for Pacific conditions, but the highly stable Deltas are also made for the Pacific coast and their hull shape is the opposite of Eddyline’s, with a voluminous bow and stern.
The lack of information at the Eddyline website about what exactly the hull shape is and the reasons for each component of the design makes it very hard for paddlers to know what they’re buying and what to expect from each kayak. Thus they can’t match their skill level to the kayak. Past claims about the high stability of Eddylines (e.g., the “high” stability rating of the Merlin, which was discontinued for “low” stability), were in my opinion exaggerated and unsafe for unwary buyers. The blurb for the Eddyline Journey here at paddling.com reads, “The Journey is a touring kayak for the paddler seeking exceptional stability.” I think that’s just plain false. The Journey does not inherently have exceptional stability. Statements like that shouldn’t go unquestioned. What exactly about this hull makes it exceptionally stable? Ideally, your skills and the hull design work together to save your skin. That’s not the case with the Journey.
People are mesmerized by the beauty of Eddyline kayaks, but they don’t understand the hull and Eddyline doesn’t do much to help their understanding. Consumers have to demand more information and more honest stability ratings. Paddler safety has to be as important as selling kayaks. Otherwise we lose faith in the brand. It doesn’t help to say that “all manufacturers do this” (fail to provide design information and exaggerate stability). When you spend $2500 on a kayak you expect more from the manufacturer in the way of information and honesty.
@WaterBird said:
Getting back to the question of Eddyline stability.
Now that the ownership of Eddyline has changed hands, I hope the new owners will be open to revising their hull philosophy (very low bow and stern to avoid wind), especially on kayaks from the Journey on down. The reason given for that shape was that Eddylines are made for Pacific conditions, but the highly stable Deltas are also made for the Pacific coast and their hull shape is the opposite of Eddyline’s, with a voluminous bow and stern.
The lack of information at the Eddyline website about what exactly the hull shape is and the reasons for each component of the design makes it very hard for paddlers to know what they’re buying and what to expect from each kayak. Thus they can’t match their skill level to the kayak. Past claims about the high stability of Eddylines (e.g., the “high” stability rating of the Merlin, which was discontinued for “low” stability), were in my opinion exaggerated and unsafe for unwary buyers. The blurb for the Eddyline Journey here at paddling.com reads, “The Journey is a touring kayak for the paddler seeking exceptional stability.” I think that’s just plain false. The Journey does not inherently have exceptional stability. Statements like that shouldn’t go unquestioned. What exactly about this hull makes it exceptionally stable? Ideally, your skills and the hull design work together to save your skin. That’s not the case with the Journey.
People are mesmerized by the beauty of Eddyline kayaks, but they don’t understand the hull and Eddyline doesn’t do much to help their understanding. Consumers have to demand more information and more honest stability ratings. Paddler safety has to be as important as selling kayaks. Otherwise we lose faith in the brand. It doesn’t help to say that “all manufacturers do this” (fail to provide design information and exaggerate stability). When you spend $2500 on a kayak you expect more from the manufacturer in the way of information and honesty.
What have you paddled in the journey size that is more stable?
@DrowningDave said:
I also find that the faster you go the better the skeg or rudder work.
Skegs and rudders are quite different in this situation.
A rudder needs speed in the water to work as intended. If the speed in the water is zero, there will be no force on the rudder from the oncoming water. (The rudder will of course still act as a fixed skeg and see some water force from the “skeg effect”, but that is another story.)
A skeg can do a lot, even when your speed in the water is zero. Even though the speed is zero, the wind will still try to push the kayak sideways, and the skeg will still change how the kayak reacts to that. But something else happens too: When the speed is low, the front of kayak will have less sideways resistance in the water. So the hinge point will move toward the rear of the kayak,and you will need less skeg than usual - or probably no skeg at all - to keep the balance between the front end and the rear end.
I can steer my.kayaks with rudders when just sitting in the wind. You can keep it pointed in a certain direction. I do pull the rudder up for a while in snotty conditions so I am not lost if a cable snaps as stated here before.
Altering the angle at which a stationary kayak lays to the wind by changing the position of its center of lateral resistance (e.g by raising or lowering a skeg or a rudder) is not “steering” as I understand it, nor, I suspect, how Allan understands it.
Nick
@PaddleDog52 said:
What’s the difference between a skeg and rudder if the speed is zero? What is the difference if rudder and skeg if rudder is not moved?
If the speed relative to the water in all directions is zero, neither rudder not skeg will work.
However, if you have speed relative to the water in the sideways direction, you can control the kayak by lowering or raising the skeg. But turning the rudder left or right in this situation will not do much - the only steering effect will come from perhaps having a slightly lower or higher water resistance in the sideways direction with the rudder turned to one of the sides.
Of course you can raise the rudder and get the same effect as you would from raising a skeg.
Back when I was younger, I had a downriver racing kayak called a Prijon Phantom Sprint that was like that. The rules required 23.75" of beam, but it didn’t have to be in the water, so it had these “wings” behind the paddler that hung out about 6" above the waterline to meet the requirement. The actual waterline beam under the seat was probably about 14" at best. Your paddle blade in the water was your stability and you literally couldn’t stop and rest with the paddle out of the water and across the cockpit rim, like you can in other kayaks. Quite fast though.
The thing with high-end kayaks though, is that you can line up a dozen world-class designs, put them in the water to try, and the chances are that you will only be comfortable and get a really good fit and really like two or three of them for one reason or another. There will be a few that just don’t seem to fit you, some that don’t handle the way you like, and maybe a couple that aren’t bad, but aren’t great. It doesn’t mean they’re bad boats, they just aren’t good boats for you. Each one is a mixture of a lot of different factors, and all the mixtures are different. Somebody else may favor totally different models that you can’t stand. I gave up worrying about what my kayaks are made from a long time ago. I won’t buy one, and wouldn’t ever build another one without trying the design first, as personal fit and function far outweigh any other criteria.
A skeg when dropped will always reduce the tendency of the wind to push the back of the boat around. A rudder when held steady will always reduce the tendency of the wind to push the back of the boat around. Bottom line, they do the same thing. How much impact depends on the hull shape.
People get this way too complicated. The thing in back whatever it is makes it harder for the boat to turn into the wind, so if you are crossing with say a rear quarter wind coming at you it is easier to go straight. You may find that the wind is pushing you at a useful angle, in that case take the favor and keep the tracking device up. Wind can be used to your benefit if you plan well.
My first sea kayak was ruddered and the thing was a PITA to live with and got in the way of a lot of what I wanted to do. For my paddling I didn’t find much need for it. So my boats since have been skegged. I regularly suggest people who want to do extensive camping trips consider a rudder though, because the one situation where I found the rudder helpful was with a fully loaded boat.
I am really enjoying the way rudders on surfskis work. It’s a fixed pedal operated understurn rudder located more like a skeg on sea kayaks. No need for corrective strokes except maybe a light brace if you want a tighter turn.
I was at a clinic earlier this summer and one person had an overstern rudder like in sea kayaks (an option on some skis). The waves were less that a foot and that rudder just wasn’t doing anything. The person had to switch boats to carry on.
